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I always disliked this kind of thinking. Let me begin by saying I'm agnostic so I'm not actually church-biased. The roman catholic church has rules and nobody

by iaskwhy 17y ago

I always disliked this kind of thinking. Let me begin by saying I'm agnostic so I'm not actually church-biased. The roman catholic church has rules and nobody is forced to follow those rules. If some people like to think they are roman catholics then they should follow those rules which include not having sex unless you are procreating. Now you can say the church should evolve, become modern, and while that would be fair, it's also fair for the church to stand by their ideals. You can insist and say they have a fair share of responsability for those who follow them which should make them evolve faster but people need to start thinking for themselves and think about what's more important: being roman catholic or using a condom? I'd say there's only one way you comply to both: if you're married to someone HIV positive and want to procreate. If that's the case, you might want to think about your child which might carry HIV too. edit: At the end of my post I said "your child which will probably carry HIV" but apparently it's not a high probability as pointed by sounddust so I changed it to "might carry". Thanks, sounddust!

sounddust 17y ago
That's an interesting point of view: Should people be encouraged to choose between religion or reason, or should we encourage religion to adapt? I don't think the answer is clear; I'd guess that the most effective approach is a case-by-case basis (true, the Roman Catholic church is unlikely to bend anytime soon, but perhaps other religions are more willing to adapt). Others have the right to criticize religion just as much as they have the right to their beliefs, so I think that the focus should be on effectiveness rather than "rights" (which I think are well-preserved in both cases). One thing I want to point out: mother-to-infant transmission of HIV is around 2-8% with proper preventative treatment and 15-30% without, so I disagree that the child will "probably" carry HIV, although it is certainly a risk.
- iaskwhy 17y ago
  It's a too complicated topic and that's why I stayed out of it. I try to believe reason is above everything else and when showed I'm wrong I just update my views on it. I'm not sure what should the church do but I know I'm fascinated by those who follow those rules. I'm not talking about those who follow it blindly but of those who really believe it. I edited the original post to reflect the right probability of a child carrying HIV from their parents, thanks!
- Tichy 17y ago
  What could be a reason to choose religion over religion? The only thing I can think of is an elitist stance, that the unwashed masses are incapable to think for themselves and hence need reasonable people to make up the rules for them. Naturally, if you happen to be among the elite/leadership, maybe encouraging religion seems like the better idea.
Robin_Message 17y ago
The problem is the Catholic church is in a position of social respect and authority, and it spreads disinformation like: Pope Benedict said on the eve of his trip that he wanted to wrap his arms around the entire continent, with "its painful wounds, its enormous potential and hopes". HIV/Aids was, he argued, "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem". [1] The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk. [2] The church can invent whatever rules it likes and people can chose to follow them or not, but spreading lies about condoms is not acceptable. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7947460.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7947460.stm [2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids
- tptacek 17y ago
  The Vatican also says that priests must be celibate, and yet the Catholic church in Africa is --- allegedly, according to Newsweek --- rife with married priests. Let's not overestimate the influence of the Pope. It wasn't the Catholic church telling people they could cure STDs by deflowering virgins.
- mcantor 17y ago
  Wow.
jarek 17y ago
> The roman catholic church has rules and nobody is forced to follow those rules. This is wishful thinking. There are many heavily (90%+) Catholic countries with a culture that does not take kindly to outliers. You are forced to follow the rules, if not by threat of violence or social ostracization then by prosaic reality such as low to non-existent availability of condoms. Further, much as I wish everyone would think for themselves and so on, if you've always been taught that the church is not just right, but divinely infallible, and disobeying the teachings will score you an eternity of damnation and some nice hellfire, for many, many people disobeying will not be quite as easy as saying "nobody is forced to follow those rules."

by iaskwhy 17y ago

sounddust 17y ago

That's an interesting point of view: Should people be encouraged to choose between religion or reason, or should we encourage religion to adapt? I don't think the answer is clear; I'd guess that the most effective approach is a case-by-case basis (true, the Roman Catholic church is unlikely to bend anytime soon, but perhaps other religions are more willing to adapt). Others have the right to criticize religion just as much as they have the right to their beliefs, so I think that the focus should be on effectiveness rather than "rights" (which I think are well-preserved in both cases). One thing I want to point out: mother-to-infant transmission of HIV is around 2-8% with proper preventative treatment and 15-30% without, so I disagree that the child will "probably" carry HIV, although it is certainly a risk.

iaskwhy 17y ago
It's a too complicated topic and that's why I stayed out of it. I try to believe reason is above everything else and when showed I'm wrong I just update my views on it. I'm not sure what should the church do but I know I'm fascinated by those who follow those rules. I'm not talking about those who follow it blindly but of those who really believe it. I edited the original post to reflect the right probability of a child carrying HIV from their parents, thanks!
Tichy 17y ago
What could be a reason to choose religion over religion? The only thing I can think of is an elitist stance, that the unwashed masses are incapable to think for themselves and hence need reasonable people to make up the rules for them. Naturally, if you happen to be among the elite/leadership, maybe encouraging religion seems like the better idea.

Robin_Message 17y ago

The problem is the Catholic church is in a position of social respect and authority, and it spreads disinformation like: Pope Benedict said on the eve of his trip that he wanted to wrap his arms around the entire continent, with "its painful wounds, its enormous potential and hopes". HIV/Aids was, he argued, "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem". [1] The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk. [2] The church can invent whatever rules it likes and people can chose to follow them or not, but spreading lies about condoms is not acceptable. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7947460.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7947460.stm [2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

tptacek 17y ago
The Vatican also says that priests must be celibate, and yet the Catholic church in Africa is --- allegedly, according to Newsweek --- rife with married priests. Let's not overestimate the influence of the Pope. It wasn't the Catholic church telling people they could cure STDs by deflowering virgins.
mcantor 17y ago
Wow.

jarek 17y ago

> The roman catholic church has rules and nobody is forced to follow those rules. This is wishful thinking. There are many heavily (90%+) Catholic countries with a culture that does not take kindly to outliers. You are forced to follow the rules, if not by threat of violence or social ostracization then by prosaic reality such as low to non-existent availability of condoms. Further, much as I wish everyone would think for themselves and so on, if you've always been taught that the church is not just right, but divinely infallible, and disobeying the teachings will score you an eternity of damnation and some nice hellfire, for many, many people disobeying will not be quite as easy as saying "nobody is forced to follow those rules."