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> I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Good or bad; I am Dutch and I would confidently say that all people I know would never ride a

> I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Good or bad; I am Dutch and I would confidently say that all people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets. More likely if it would be mandatory, they just would refuse and not do it, but if largely enforced they would just not use bikes anymore.

Arnt 10y ago
You learn to appreciate a helmet if you share roadspace with a certain subset of vehicles and drivers. Which you, blessedly, don't.
- aequitas 10y ago
  Although there are separated roads for bikes and cars we do still share roadspace. The major difference I think is that in the Netherlands there is a law which gives vulnerable road participants (pedestrians, bicycler) the benefit of the doubt whenever there is an accident. Even if the guilt is proven to be with the bicycler, the car driver should have paid more attention. One way this is good for bicyclers because they are protected but on the other side they do tend to be more aggressive and reckless in their driving.
  - danieldk 10y ago
    The major difference I think is that in the Netherlands there is a law which gives vulnerable road participants (pedestrians, bicycler) the benefit of the doubt whenever there is an accident. Even if the guilt is proven to be with the bicycler, the car driver should have paid more attention. As far as I know, this is also true in Germany and many people wear helmets. I never wore a helmet in The Netherlands, but I do now that I live in Germany. Why? - German car drivers are less used to cyclers. They are either extremely careful (like driving behind you for five minutes or passing you with a distance of 2 meters). Or they are extremely reckless (e.g. cutting you off on the very few bicycle lanes). So, in general I feel less safe than in The Netherlands. - Altitude differences. The Netherlands are mostly flat. Here (southern Germany) it's quite hilly. That often makes it more difficult to brake abruptly.
    - netule 10y ago
      Pretty much the same for me here in the US. I grew up in the Netherlands and always felt safe bicycling there. The first time I went bicycling around San Jose, I felt like I was going to die.
deanclatworthy 10y ago
Odd that you say this about helmets. It only takes one mistake, one cyclist not paying attention, one mechanical fault, one swerving car or an obstacle in the road - and you'll be landing face first into the tarmac wishing you wore a helmet. 185 cyclists died last year in the Netherlands [1]. I wonder how many of those weren't wearing a helmet. I also found this interesting article [2] going into a lot more detail on why the Dutch don't seem to want to wear them. [1] http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/04/traffic-accident-deaths-rise-9-reversing-years-of-steady-decline/ http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/04/traffic-accide... [2] http://tedx.amsterdam/2015/08/why-doesnt-the-dutch-bike-culture-include-helmets/ http://tedx.amsterdam/2015/08/why-doesnt-the-dutch-bike-cult...
- mafribe 10y ago
  Typical bicyle helmets don't help much with a face-first landing on the tarmac, your chin takes most of the pounding. I can confidently say that from repeated ... 'experiments'. In contrast, a motorcyle helmet that also wraps around the chin would be of great use in most bicycle accidents. 185 cyclists died A more interesting statistic would be: how many of those deaths would have been prevented by a bicycle helmet?
  - deanclatworthy 10y ago
    That depends entirely on how you fall off your bike, which depends on your speed and numerous other factors. The problem here is that it's pretty hard to tell after the fact whether a death would have been prevented by a helmet. We can guess, speculate but it's hard to measure the exact forces exerted - and also how someone's biological material will react to that (the brain). In all my reading around this issue, those that don't want to wear helmets don't tend to wear them for fashion reasons, and interpret the stats they read to insinuate that helmets don't save lives. They don't like how it looks, feels, or that they will be teased for wearing one. I'd rather live to see the next day than care about what a helmet looks like. And one other point to end on, it's not just deaths we're talking about here. Many people have suffered brain injuries from the impact of falling off their bike. Imagine there was something you could put on your head that would prevent that impact.
johanvts 10y ago
When I was in primary school and maybe high school I remember not wanting to wear a helmet because it looked silly. As a adult I think it would be a lot more silly to loose my life, health, ability to focus or to walk just because I didn't want to look silly. I'm not saying you are wrong, but that all people you know are. Besides the helmets these days really do look better, the producers have moved on from a purely utilitarian focus to actually having someone think about the visual aspect as well.
- cr1895 10y ago
  Have you been to the Netherlands before and seen how effective and safe the cycling infra is even without people wearing helmets?
  - johanvts 10y ago
    Yes, I have and it's great. Similar to Denmark where I live, but it's even safer if you wear a helmet. There is a clear benefit to wearing one and not much of cost so it's an easy choice IMO.
    - cr1895 10y ago
      I haven't been to Denmark (yet, will be in CPH in Nov!) but I understand ytour cycle infrastructure is comparable to that of the Netherlands. Do you find more people wear helmets there than in NL?
Angostura 10y ago
I'm strongly against mandatory helmets for the reason that you suggest. But I'm one of the people (Im in the UK) who now wears helmets for both skiing and cycling. My cycle helmet almost certainly saved my life when a car gave me a knock and my head went onto the kerb. This was a slow collision in London traffic - probably doing about 10-12 MPh.
- rkangel 10y ago
  The transition on attitude towards skiing helmets (at least in European resorts) has been really interesting to watch. It has gone from being something that only children and the seriously hardcore off piste snowboarders. I never used to wear one, and neither did most of the people I ski with, but over the last 5 years its changed until we now seriously judge people for being reckless if they won't wear a helmet. The death of Natasha Richardson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Richardson#Injury_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Richardson#Injury_and_...) was fairly well publicised in the UK and I think that had a bit of a catalytic effect for us, but it was pushing at an open door of a change that was already happening.
  - namdnay 10y ago
    In France it has taken time, and there are still some holdouts (most notably the national ski school, ESF). I believe it's mandatory already in several Swiss resorts, I know it is in Zermatt. I really hope the ESF will mandate helmets for all instructors, this would go a long way to normalising them. I don't think wearing a helmet when skiing is comparable to commute cycling. I think motorcycling would be closer. In both cases you're going at relatively high speeds with quite long breaking distances.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    It's true in (at least some areas of) the US as well. I went downhill skiing in California for the first time in a few years last winter and, for the first time, I was very aware that I was definitely in the minority not wearing a helmet. (I do wear a hat with some impact resistant padding.) There's been a big shift. I suspect at least part of it has been that helmets have been the norm for kids for a while--especially after snowboarding became common. I assume many parents felt they had to start wearing helmets if they were telling their kids they had to.
tasty_freeze 10y ago
Your use of the pejorative "silly" is indeed indicative of why Dutch people wouldn't use them. They might be silly for low speed commute cycling, but labeling the helmets silly in and of themselves is, uh, silly. Perhaps you should have said Dutch people would view wearing the helmets for bike commuting to be silly.
- tripzilch 10y ago
  But, to make up for it, we also consider driving a racing bike in city traffic at speeds over 15 km/h silly (although the outfit doesn't help either). And we look before we open the car door, because there's bikes everywhere. I guess that evens it out a little :)
criddell 10y ago
> people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets Why not? You make it sound like Dutch aren't very committed to cycling.
tripzilch 10y ago
> I am Dutch and I would confidently say that all people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets. More likely if it would be mandatory, they just would refuse and not do it, but if largely enforced they would just not use bikes anymore. Weeelll ... not use a bike any more?? How are you going to get around then? :) :) Indeed most would refuse and not do it, and if largely enforced, many would still refuse and not do it. ... but give up our bikes? Never! :) They'll never enforce it though. Too many bikes. Take mandatory working front and back lights. I don't know about all cities of course, but where I live, they only enforce that a few weeks per year, at only a few same spots every year. Any other time, anywhere else, you can drive past a police car with no lights and they won't stop you (because they are there with something better to do). And this is for a bike law that pretty much everyone agrees is useful and important for safety (it's just that those damn lights break so quickly).

Arnt 10y ago

You learn to appreciate a helmet if you share roadspace with a certain subset of vehicles and drivers. Which you, blessedly, don't.

aequitas 10y ago
Although there are separated roads for bikes and cars we do still share roadspace. The major difference I think is that in the Netherlands there is a law which gives vulnerable road participants (pedestrians, bicycler) the benefit of the doubt whenever there is an accident. Even if the guilt is proven to be with the bicycler, the car driver should have paid more attention. One way this is good for bicyclers because they are protected but on the other side they do tend to be more aggressive and reckless in their driving.
- danieldk 10y ago
  The major difference I think is that in the Netherlands there is a law which gives vulnerable road participants (pedestrians, bicycler) the benefit of the doubt whenever there is an accident. Even if the guilt is proven to be with the bicycler, the car driver should have paid more attention. As far as I know, this is also true in Germany and many people wear helmets. I never wore a helmet in The Netherlands, but I do now that I live in Germany. Why? - German car drivers are less used to cyclers. They are either extremely careful (like driving behind you for five minutes or passing you with a distance of 2 meters). Or they are extremely reckless (e.g. cutting you off on the very few bicycle lanes). So, in general I feel less safe than in The Netherlands. - Altitude differences. The Netherlands are mostly flat. Here (southern Germany) it's quite hilly. That often makes it more difficult to brake abruptly.
  - netule 10y ago
    Pretty much the same for me here in the US. I grew up in the Netherlands and always felt safe bicycling there. The first time I went bicycling around San Jose, I felt like I was going to die.

deanclatworthy 10y ago

Odd that you say this about helmets. It only takes one mistake, one cyclist not paying attention, one mechanical fault, one swerving car or an obstacle in the road - and you'll be landing face first into the tarmac wishing you wore a helmet. 185 cyclists died last year in the Netherlands [1]. I wonder how many of those weren't wearing a helmet. I also found this interesting article [2] going into a lot more detail on why the Dutch don't seem to want to wear them. [1] http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/04/traffic-accident-deaths-rise-9-reversing-years-of-steady-decline/ http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/04/traffic-accide... [2] http://tedx.amsterdam/2015/08/why-doesnt-the-dutch-bike-culture-include-helmets/ http://tedx.amsterdam/2015/08/why-doesnt-the-dutch-bike-cult...

mafribe 10y ago
Typical bicyle helmets don't help much with a face-first landing on the tarmac, your chin takes most of the pounding. I can confidently say that from repeated ... 'experiments'. In contrast, a motorcyle helmet that also wraps around the chin would be of great use in most bicycle accidents. 185 cyclists died A more interesting statistic would be: how many of those deaths would have been prevented by a bicycle helmet?
- deanclatworthy 10y ago
  That depends entirely on how you fall off your bike, which depends on your speed and numerous other factors. The problem here is that it's pretty hard to tell after the fact whether a death would have been prevented by a helmet. We can guess, speculate but it's hard to measure the exact forces exerted - and also how someone's biological material will react to that (the brain). In all my reading around this issue, those that don't want to wear helmets don't tend to wear them for fashion reasons, and interpret the stats they read to insinuate that helmets don't save lives. They don't like how it looks, feels, or that they will be teased for wearing one. I'd rather live to see the next day than care about what a helmet looks like. And one other point to end on, it's not just deaths we're talking about here. Many people have suffered brain injuries from the impact of falling off their bike. Imagine there was something you could put on your head that would prevent that impact.

johanvts 10y ago

When I was in primary school and maybe high school I remember not wanting to wear a helmet because it looked silly. As a adult I think it would be a lot more silly to loose my life, health, ability to focus or to walk just because I didn't want to look silly. I'm not saying you are wrong, but that all people you know are. Besides the helmets these days really do look better, the producers have moved on from a purely utilitarian focus to actually having someone think about the visual aspect as well.

cr1895 10y ago
Have you been to the Netherlands before and seen how effective and safe the cycling infra is even without people wearing helmets?
- johanvts 10y ago
  Yes, I have and it's great. Similar to Denmark where I live, but it's even safer if you wear a helmet. There is a clear benefit to wearing one and not much of cost so it's an easy choice IMO.
  - cr1895 10y ago
    I haven't been to Denmark (yet, will be in CPH in Nov!) but I understand ytour cycle infrastructure is comparable to that of the Netherlands. Do you find more people wear helmets there than in NL?

Angostura 10y ago

I'm strongly against mandatory helmets for the reason that you suggest. But I'm one of the people (Im in the UK) who now wears helmets for both skiing and cycling. My cycle helmet almost certainly saved my life when a car gave me a knock and my head went onto the kerb. This was a slow collision in London traffic - probably doing about 10-12 MPh.

rkangel 10y ago
The transition on attitude towards skiing helmets (at least in European resorts) has been really interesting to watch. It has gone from being something that only children and the seriously hardcore off piste snowboarders. I never used to wear one, and neither did most of the people I ski with, but over the last 5 years its changed until we now seriously judge people for being reckless if they won't wear a helmet. The death of Natasha Richardson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Richardson#Injury_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Richardson#Injury_and_...) was fairly well publicised in the UK and I think that had a bit of a catalytic effect for us, but it was pushing at an open door of a change that was already happening.
- namdnay 10y ago
  In France it has taken time, and there are still some holdouts (most notably the national ski school, ESF). I believe it's mandatory already in several Swiss resorts, I know it is in Zermatt. I really hope the ESF will mandate helmets for all instructors, this would go a long way to normalising them. I don't think wearing a helmet when skiing is comparable to commute cycling. I think motorcycling would be closer. In both cases you're going at relatively high speeds with quite long breaking distances.
- ghaff 10y ago
  It's true in (at least some areas of) the US as well. I went downhill skiing in California for the first time in a few years last winter and, for the first time, I was very aware that I was definitely in the minority not wearing a helmet. (I do wear a hat with some impact resistant padding.) There's been a big shift. I suspect at least part of it has been that helmets have been the norm for kids for a while--especially after snowboarding became common. I assume many parents felt they had to start wearing helmets if they were telling their kids they had to.

tasty_freeze 10y ago

Your use of the pejorative "silly" is indeed indicative of why Dutch people wouldn't use them. They might be silly for low speed commute cycling, but labeling the helmets silly in and of themselves is, uh, silly. Perhaps you should have said Dutch people would view wearing the helmets for bike commuting to be silly.

tripzilch 10y ago
But, to make up for it, we also consider driving a racing bike in city traffic at speeds over 15 km/h silly (although the outfit doesn't help either). And we look before we open the car door, because there's bikes everywhere. I guess that evens it out a little :)

criddell 10y ago

> people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets Why not? You make it sound like Dutch aren't very committed to cycling.

tripzilch 10y ago

> I am Dutch and I would confidently say that all people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets. More likely if it would be mandatory, they just would refuse and not do it, but if largely enforced they would just not use bikes anymore. Weeelll ... not use a bike any more?? How are you going to get around then? :) :) Indeed most would refuse and not do it, and if largely enforced, many would still refuse and not do it. ... but give up our bikes? Never! :) They'll never enforce it though. Too many bikes. Take mandatory working front and back lights. I don't know about all cities of course, but where I live, they only enforce that a few weeks per year, at only a few same spots every year. Any other time, anywhere else, you can drive past a police car with no lights and they won't stop you (because they are there with something better to do). And this is for a bike law that pretty much everyone agrees is useful and important for safety (it's just that those damn lights break so quickly).