4 ms·

Not quite. After 30s of googling: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7967173.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7967173.stm It said the Pope's recent comments that condom

by maurycy 17y ago

Not quite. After 30s of googling: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7967173.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7967173.stm It said the Pope's recent comments that condoms exacerbated the problem of HIV/Aids were wildly inaccurate and could have devastating consequences. The Pope had said the "cruel epidemic" should be tackled through abstinence and fidelity rather than condom use.

Tichy 17y ago
"abstinence and fidelity rather than condom use" Isn't that basically the same as "no sex outside marriage"?
- maurycy 17y ago
  Not quite. It doesn't matter, though. Please focus on the first part: "condoms exacerbated the problem of HIV/AIDS". The statement is wildly untrue, and makes the Church guilty of STD's spread.
  - gaius 17y ago
    So people are ignoring the Church on abstinence, but obeying it on contraception? Doesn't really seem plausible, does it?
    - edanm 17y ago
      "Doesn't really seem plausible, does it?" It doesn't, but I think this is what happens in practice.
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        Sad but true. A friend of mine is religious and believes in the no contraception / no sex before marriage rule. On a recent trip to Africa she returned and admitted to having sex with a local. Her main concern was not for health problems but moral ones: she had sinned for sex outside of marriage and was repentent etc. When I asked if she'd "at least used a condom" she looked horrified "oh no! I couldn't do that" The problem is that sex outside of marriage is a sin with reward; you get to have sex, that feels good. Condoms are not a necessary part of that act (I don't know of anyone who prefers them! :)) and so the sin is "easier to avoid". There is not necessarily a perceived reward for using contraception (at least at the time of the act). You can lose but not gain. etc.
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
    - rauljara 17y ago
      No. Not all people will obey calls to abstinence and monogamy. Period. There has always been adultery and teenage pregnancy; there is no reason to think there ever won't be. In addition, no study of abstinence until marriage education has ever been shown to reduce teen pregnancy. However, condom use has been shown to slow the spread of std's. By spreading lies about a method which has been shown to be effective while simultaneously pushing a method which has never been shown to be effective, the church is helping to spread the epidemic. If they want to push abstinence only, fine, but actively discouraging something which can keep people safe by SPREADING LIES is unacceptable.
    - dagw 17y ago
      Seems very plausible to me. Most religions don't require that you must follow all the rules, but that you do your best to follow as many as you can and feel really bad when you fail. Given that, why is it so odd that people follow the easy rules (not using a condom) but not the hard rules (abstinence).
Radix 17y ago
The Catholic church condemns all birth control, including for married couples, if I understand correctly. This is why they hold some guilt. I don't see any problem with backing abstinence as the proper form for premarital birth control, denying it in all situations mean those who fail to maintain abstinence won't feel social pressure to use birth control, and, guessing, there will be a lower likelihood of easy access birth control. Church argument: Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods. http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp I don't follow the church's argument, but crimes against humanity? That's just silly. So why are yall down-voting him?
- mseebach 17y ago
  > I don't see any problem with backing abstinence as the proper form for premarital birth control, denying it in all situations mean those who fail to maintain abstinence won't feel social pressure to use birth control, and, guessing, there will be a lower likelihood of easy access birth control. I'm not a catholic, but you have to try to see it from their perspective. What kind of moral leader are you, if you say "don't sin, but if you're going to sin anyway, here's the best way to do it"? To draw a parallel: Suicide is very very wrong. But doing it wrong will put you in a lot of pain and might handicap you - so we should make small pamphlets for teenagers saying "don't kill yourself - but here are some tips if you're going to anyway". For someone who's not opposed to premarital sex or contraception, it's an unreasonably far stretch to compare - but I'm not at all sure that's not pretty much how they feel about it.
  - joubert 17y ago
    But this dilemma stems from the original irrational statement that sex outside marriage is immoral.
tptacek 17y ago
No amount of message board geekery is going to get you around the fact that a core tenet of the Catholic church is that sex is appropriate only in marriage.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  ... and only for reproduction. Unfortunately, the message could be "if you are really going to sin, at least sin in a way that doesn't endanger yours and your partner's life" not "do not sin and damn the condoms"
  - tptacek 17y ago
    If you want medical advice, go to a doctor.
    - rbanffy 17y ago
      Unfortunately, far too many people take advice from the main priest of the Church of The Flying Zombie...
araneae 17y ago
I believe that statement refers to the commandments. At least in Spanish, the commandment about adultery is translated to mean "no sex outside of marriage." That is interpreted by many South Americans at least to mean no pre-marital sex.

by maurycy 17y ago

Tichy 17y ago

"abstinence and fidelity rather than condom use" Isn't that basically the same as "no sex outside marriage"?

maurycy 17y ago
Not quite. It doesn't matter, though. Please focus on the first part: "condoms exacerbated the problem of HIV/AIDS". The statement is wildly untrue, and makes the Church guilty of STD's spread.
- gaius 17y ago
  So people are ignoring the Church on abstinence, but obeying it on contraception? Doesn't really seem plausible, does it?
  - edanm 17y ago
    "Doesn't really seem plausible, does it?" It doesn't, but I think this is what happens in practice.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      Sad but true. A friend of mine is religious and believes in the no contraception / no sex before marriage rule. On a recent trip to Africa she returned and admitted to having sex with a local. Her main concern was not for health problems but moral ones: she had sinned for sex outside of marriage and was repentent etc. When I asked if she'd "at least used a condom" she looked horrified "oh no! I couldn't do that" The problem is that sex outside of marriage is a sin with reward; you get to have sex, that feels good. Condoms are not a necessary part of that act (I don't know of anyone who prefers them! :)) and so the sin is "easier to avoid". There is not necessarily a perceived reward for using contraception (at least at the time of the act). You can lose but not gain. etc.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
  - rauljara 17y ago
    No. Not all people will obey calls to abstinence and monogamy. Period. There has always been adultery and teenage pregnancy; there is no reason to think there ever won't be. In addition, no study of abstinence until marriage education has ever been shown to reduce teen pregnancy. However, condom use has been shown to slow the spread of std's. By spreading lies about a method which has been shown to be effective while simultaneously pushing a method which has never been shown to be effective, the church is helping to spread the epidemic. If they want to push abstinence only, fine, but actively discouraging something which can keep people safe by SPREADING LIES is unacceptable.
  - dagw 17y ago
    Seems very plausible to me. Most religions don't require that you must follow all the rules, but that you do your best to follow as many as you can and feel really bad when you fail. Given that, why is it so odd that people follow the easy rules (not using a condom) but not the hard rules (abstinence).

Radix 17y ago

The Catholic church condemns all birth control, including for married couples, if I understand correctly. This is why they hold some guilt. I don't see any problem with backing abstinence as the proper form for premarital birth control, denying it in all situations mean those who fail to maintain abstinence won't feel social pressure to use birth control, and, guessing, there will be a lower likelihood of easy access birth control. Church argument: Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods. http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp I don't follow the church's argument, but crimes against humanity? That's just silly. So why are yall down-voting him?

mseebach 17y ago
> I don't see any problem with backing abstinence as the proper form for premarital birth control, denying it in all situations mean those who fail to maintain abstinence won't feel social pressure to use birth control, and, guessing, there will be a lower likelihood of easy access birth control. I'm not a catholic, but you have to try to see it from their perspective. What kind of moral leader are you, if you say "don't sin, but if you're going to sin anyway, here's the best way to do it"? To draw a parallel: Suicide is very very wrong. But doing it wrong will put you in a lot of pain and might handicap you - so we should make small pamphlets for teenagers saying "don't kill yourself - but here are some tips if you're going to anyway". For someone who's not opposed to premarital sex or contraception, it's an unreasonably far stretch to compare - but I'm not at all sure that's not pretty much how they feel about it.
- joubert 17y ago
  But this dilemma stems from the original irrational statement that sex outside marriage is immoral.

tptacek 17y ago

No amount of message board geekery is going to get you around the fact that a core tenet of the Catholic church is that sex is appropriate only in marriage.

rbanffy 17y ago
... and only for reproduction. Unfortunately, the message could be "if you are really going to sin, at least sin in a way that doesn't endanger yours and your partner's life" not "do not sin and damn the condoms"
- tptacek 17y ago
  If you want medical advice, go to a doctor.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    Unfortunately, far too many people take advice from the main priest of the Church of The Flying Zombie...

araneae 17y ago

I believe that statement refers to the commandments. At least in Spanish, the commandment about adultery is translated to mean "no sex outside of marriage." That is interpreted by many South Americans at least to mean no pre-marital sex.