6 ms·

Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. It's

Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. It's also very frustrating to have to assume everyone is so ignorant that they wouldn't mind accidentally killing you for the sake of saving a second or two. I completely agree that being aggressively paranoid is the way to stay alive. But agreeing that it is the smart thing to do and believing that it's acceptable are different things. "Women are underrepresented in tech and they should just have to suck it up and deal with casual sexism & etc because tech bros can't learn to not be sexist" That's roughly the same attitude applied to women as cyclists. Seems a lot worse that way, doesn't it?

pooper 10y ago
> Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. It's also very frustrating to have to assume everyone is so ignorant that they wouldn't mind accidentally killing you for the sake of saving a second or two. I'll bite. Any cyclist who rides on the sidewalk, runs a red light, or flaunts traffic convention in general absolutely deserves to be treated as a second class citizen. Your wheels don't belong on the sidewalk. I'm sorry if I sound rude.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Riding on the sidewalk, for short distances and with a good reason, can be done safely and courteously, though it may require slowing to walking speed. How many car drivers never exceed the speed limit and always come to a complete stop at stop signs? Your absolutism should apply in both directions, no?
  - pooper 10y ago
    I wouldn't have to be rude if cyclists rode at walking speed safely and courteously. Some cyclists are incredibly self-entitled. Of course, I think we need stiff penalties for cars hitting cyclists. However, cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk. Yes, cars not coming to a full stop is a problem. But saying something else us wrong doesn't make me right. I'm glad you guys have a hug box going on here but if you can't ride safely on a bike lane, don't ride a bicycle. I shouldn't have to give way to cyclists speeding on the sidewalk. If you're at walking speed, you can ride behind me. No need to pass.
    - msandford 10y ago
      >>> I'll bite. Any cyclist who rides on the sidewalk, runs a red light, or flaunts traffic convention in general absolutely deserves to be treated as a second class citizen. Your wheels don't belong on the sidewalk. I'm sorry if I sound rude. > But saying something else us wrong doesn't make me right. So are you saying that because cyclists do wrong stuff, cars can also do wrong stuff? Or are you contradicting yourself when convenient so that you can attempt to win an argument? Your statements are not terribly self-coherent.
    - ScottBurson 10y ago
      > cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk. Agreed.
    - TulliusCicero 10y ago
      > However, cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk. As a cyclist I agree. However, at the same time, very few parts of the US have any safe infrastructure for bikes; it's completely understandable that your average joe cyclist wants to be in a place that's physically separated from cars, because he values his life.
    - thatcat 10y ago
      >Some cyclists are incredibly self-entitled ... >you can ride behind me. No need to pass The bicycle stops balancing itself as you slow down to 2 mph due to reduced gyroscopic effects. The probability of bicycle accident might be lower at 5 mph, slightly faster than walking speed.
- honkhonkpants 10y ago
  You sound not only rude but also ignorant and wrong. Welcome to the Internet! In California many bicyclists do in fact belong on the sidewalk, and this includes any child and any adult riding with a child.
  - thrownblown 10y ago
    People who think that its rude for cyclists to be on sidewalks have never been to Japan. Many people there, especially the elderly, ride bikes on the side walk. And I dare you to show me a more polite demographic than elderly Japanese folk!
    - TulliusCicero 10y ago
      The sidewalks those Japanese cyclists are on are usually wider than American sidewalks though (because the Japanese walk a whole lot more than Americans). When sidewalks are sufficiently wide, ped/bike conflicts are less of an issue, they basically become like a multi-use path.
- barney54 10y ago
  I'll agree about cyclists on the sidewalk. They give all cyclists a bad name because it is needlessly dangerous.
  - colmvp 10y ago
    Most cyclists wouldn't be riding on the sidewalk if they had proper infrastructure. If you look at both DC and NYC they reduced the incidence of cyclists on sidewalks by implementing dedicated bike lanes. When I drive in the 'burbs, it's hardly surprising to see cyclists who prefer to ride on sidewalks lacking pedestrians over riding on a two laned road with cars going 70km/hr. It's clearly a design problem, not a problem of cyclists with a bad mentality or behavior. At least where I live, drivers who kill cyclists get extremely light sentences (if any), so is it any surprise that in certain situations, cyclists will opt for self preservation? I say this as a person who predominantly drives. Even as a driver I think any cyclist who cycles on a major road without a bike lane has some major guts.
    - TulliusCicero 10y ago
      > Even as a driver I think any cyclist who cycles on a major road without a bike lane has some major guts. Even many bike lanes are close to worthless. A strip of paint won't save you from an inattentive driver going 40+ mph.
- CookieMon 10y ago
  > Any cyclist who rides on the sidewalk, runs a red light, or flaunts traffic convention in general absolutely deserves to be treated as a second class citizen. As does any motorist who drives above the speed limit? Or any pedestrian that crosses with a red signal? Different modes of transport place different importance on different rules, out of both safety and inconvenience. It's not cyclists breaking the rules - it's everyone, but you think of it as "traffic convention" when it's the rules that you/cars like to break. (Also interesting: cyclists jumping red lights may be safer - https://www.rudi.net/node/16395 https://www.rudi.net/node/16395)
- TulliusCicero 10y ago
  You sound more ignorant than rude. Yes, there are jerk cyclists who blatantly ignore the law. There are also jerk drivers who go over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, park in the bike lane, don't signal before changing lanes, enter the intersection after the yellow has turned to red, etc. This doesn't mean we should just treat car drivers in general with contempt.
inimino 10y ago
It's a fact that we have to live in the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. Tips for surviving as a cyclist are not incompatible with trying to change things, but one may make the world a better place in twenty years while the other keeps you alive today. The trouble is when people behave as though that world already existed. It may be frustrating, but people absolutely are ignorant and lazy and that absolutely can kill you. Asserting your rights is great, but better to do it politically than on the road in a way that can get you killed.
- et-al 10y ago
  This. The problem is that a lot people bring the same level of self-centeredness to biking as they do to driving. Same bad habits and assuming the fault is on someone else. Yes, operating a 2-ton vehicle is a giant responsibility. But as a biker, to expect that 2-ton vehicle to magically disobey the laws of physics and stop for you is just as careless. Give cars space, and maybe don't be in a car's blind spot at an intersection. Have you seen the number of people trying to squeeze by a bus on Market Street? Why? (I say this as someone who's biked in SF for 7 years and stayed alive because I understand that it's dangerous to bike in this city. It would be lovely to live in a Dutch wonderland, but we live in the U.S. of fucking A., where everyone's got to be somewhere before someone else, so one needs to bike defensively here.)
trothamel 10y ago
Cyclists _are_ second class citizens on the roads. In 2009, the latest year I can find data for, cars were responsible for 3,298 billion person miles, 88.4% of person miles travelled. Bikes were responsible for a little under 9 billion, or .2%. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/publications/passenger_travel_2015/chapter2/table2_4 http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/publications/passenger_travel_20...
- TulliusCicero 10y ago
  I, for one, am shocked that a mode of transportation that is treated either as a toy or with contempt is rarely used. Who could have ever predicted such a thing? Now look at a country where bikes are treated with roughly equal seriousness as cars, like the Netherlands, and tell me how many trips and how far bikes went.
l33tbro 10y ago
> Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. True. But it's worth pointing out that cyclists aren't always the angels they often make themselves out to be. I sometimes refer to them as "the motorists of the walkway". This came after having quite a few spandex-clad baby-boomers zip by me on their sleek fixies yelling "get out of the way" when I'm walking on a shared path. Gosh, it's almost as if this behavior was identical to the berating these same people complain about from motorists.
FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
I don't believe that's an accurate analogy. Even if the laws change, even if self-driving cars became the norm tomorrow, you should assume you're cycling through a real-life GTA. You probably weigh about 200lbs including the bike and are travelling at ~20mph. The car weighs 10x as much as you and the slowest it's going is 25mph. It is very frustrating to have to assume everyone is out to kill you, but that goes with the territory when you're riding on the same streets as 1 ton rolling missiles. It would not be smart to relax one bit since even if the law changed, cars blow their tires, brakes give out, old people still drive, etc.

pooper 10y ago

> Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. It's also very frustrating to have to assume everyone is so ignorant that they wouldn't mind accidentally killing you for the sake of saving a second or two. I'll bite. Any cyclist who rides on the sidewalk, runs a red light, or flaunts traffic convention in general absolutely deserves to be treated as a second class citizen. Your wheels don't belong on the sidewalk. I'm sorry if I sound rude.

ScottBurson 10y ago
Riding on the sidewalk, for short distances and with a good reason, can be done safely and courteously, though it may require slowing to walking speed. How many car drivers never exceed the speed limit and always come to a complete stop at stop signs? Your absolutism should apply in both directions, no?
- pooper 10y ago
  I wouldn't have to be rude if cyclists rode at walking speed safely and courteously. Some cyclists are incredibly self-entitled. Of course, I think we need stiff penalties for cars hitting cyclists. However, cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk. Yes, cars not coming to a full stop is a problem. But saying something else us wrong doesn't make me right. I'm glad you guys have a hug box going on here but if you can't ride safely on a bike lane, don't ride a bicycle. I shouldn't have to give way to cyclists speeding on the sidewalk. If you're at walking speed, you can ride behind me. No need to pass.
  - msandford 10y ago
    >>> I'll bite. Any cyclist who rides on the sidewalk, runs a red light, or flaunts traffic convention in general absolutely deserves to be treated as a second class citizen. Your wheels don't belong on the sidewalk. I'm sorry if I sound rude. > But saying something else us wrong doesn't make me right. So are you saying that because cyclists do wrong stuff, cars can also do wrong stuff? Or are you contradicting yourself when convenient so that you can attempt to win an argument? Your statements are not terribly self-coherent.
  - ScottBurson 10y ago
    > cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk. Agreed.
  - TulliusCicero 10y ago
    > However, cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk. As a cyclist I agree. However, at the same time, very few parts of the US have any safe infrastructure for bikes; it's completely understandable that your average joe cyclist wants to be in a place that's physically separated from cars, because he values his life.
  - thatcat 10y ago
    >Some cyclists are incredibly self-entitled ... >you can ride behind me. No need to pass The bicycle stops balancing itself as you slow down to 2 mph due to reduced gyroscopic effects. The probability of bicycle accident might be lower at 5 mph, slightly faster than walking speed.
honkhonkpants 10y ago
You sound not only rude but also ignorant and wrong. Welcome to the Internet! In California many bicyclists do in fact belong on the sidewalk, and this includes any child and any adult riding with a child.
- thrownblown 10y ago
  People who think that its rude for cyclists to be on sidewalks have never been to Japan. Many people there, especially the elderly, ride bikes on the side walk. And I dare you to show me a more polite demographic than elderly Japanese folk!
  - TulliusCicero 10y ago
    The sidewalks those Japanese cyclists are on are usually wider than American sidewalks though (because the Japanese walk a whole lot more than Americans). When sidewalks are sufficiently wide, ped/bike conflicts are less of an issue, they basically become like a multi-use path.
barney54 10y ago
I'll agree about cyclists on the sidewalk. They give all cyclists a bad name because it is needlessly dangerous.
- colmvp 10y ago
  Most cyclists wouldn't be riding on the sidewalk if they had proper infrastructure. If you look at both DC and NYC they reduced the incidence of cyclists on sidewalks by implementing dedicated bike lanes. When I drive in the 'burbs, it's hardly surprising to see cyclists who prefer to ride on sidewalks lacking pedestrians over riding on a two laned road with cars going 70km/hr. It's clearly a design problem, not a problem of cyclists with a bad mentality or behavior. At least where I live, drivers who kill cyclists get extremely light sentences (if any), so is it any surprise that in certain situations, cyclists will opt for self preservation? I say this as a person who predominantly drives. Even as a driver I think any cyclist who cycles on a major road without a bike lane has some major guts.
  - TulliusCicero 10y ago
    > Even as a driver I think any cyclist who cycles on a major road without a bike lane has some major guts. Even many bike lanes are close to worthless. A strip of paint won't save you from an inattentive driver going 40+ mph.
CookieMon 10y ago
> Any cyclist who rides on the sidewalk, runs a red light, or flaunts traffic convention in general absolutely deserves to be treated as a second class citizen. As does any motorist who drives above the speed limit? Or any pedestrian that crosses with a red signal? Different modes of transport place different importance on different rules, out of both safety and inconvenience. It's not cyclists breaking the rules - it's everyone, but you think of it as "traffic convention" when it's the rules that you/cars like to break. (Also interesting: cyclists jumping red lights may be safer - https://www.rudi.net/node/16395 https://www.rudi.net/node/16395)
TulliusCicero 10y ago
You sound more ignorant than rude. Yes, there are jerk cyclists who blatantly ignore the law. There are also jerk drivers who go over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, park in the bike lane, don't signal before changing lanes, enter the intersection after the yellow has turned to red, etc. This doesn't mean we should just treat car drivers in general with contempt.

inimino 10y ago

It's a fact that we have to live in the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. Tips for surviving as a cyclist are not incompatible with trying to change things, but one may make the world a better place in twenty years while the other keeps you alive today. The trouble is when people behave as though that world already existed. It may be frustrating, but people absolutely are ignorant and lazy and that absolutely can kill you. Asserting your rights is great, but better to do it politically than on the road in a way that can get you killed.

et-al 10y ago
This. The problem is that a lot people bring the same level of self-centeredness to biking as they do to driving. Same bad habits and assuming the fault is on someone else. Yes, operating a 2-ton vehicle is a giant responsibility. But as a biker, to expect that 2-ton vehicle to magically disobey the laws of physics and stop for you is just as careless. Give cars space, and maybe don't be in a car's blind spot at an intersection. Have you seen the number of people trying to squeeze by a bus on Market Street? Why? (I say this as someone who's biked in SF for 7 years and stayed alive because I understand that it's dangerous to bike in this city. It would be lovely to live in a Dutch wonderland, but we live in the U.S. of fucking A., where everyone's got to be somewhere before someone else, so one needs to bike defensively here.)

trothamel 10y ago

Cyclists _are_ second class citizens on the roads. In 2009, the latest year I can find data for, cars were responsible for 3,298 billion person miles, 88.4% of person miles travelled. Bikes were responsible for a little under 9 billion, or .2%. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/publications/passenger_travel_2015/chapter2/table2_4 http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/publications/passenger_travel_20...

TulliusCicero 10y ago
I, for one, am shocked that a mode of transportation that is treated either as a toy or with contempt is rarely used. Who could have ever predicted such a thing? Now look at a country where bikes are treated with roughly equal seriousness as cars, like the Netherlands, and tell me how many trips and how far bikes went.

l33tbro 10y ago

> Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. True. But it's worth pointing out that cyclists aren't always the angels they often make themselves out to be. I sometimes refer to them as "the motorists of the walkway". This came after having quite a few spandex-clad baby-boomers zip by me on their sleek fixies yelling "get out of the way" when I'm walking on a shared path. Gosh, it's almost as if this behavior was identical to the berating these same people complain about from motorists.

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago

I don't believe that's an accurate analogy. Even if the laws change, even if self-driving cars became the norm tomorrow, you should assume you're cycling through a real-life GTA. You probably weigh about 200lbs including the bike and are travelling at ~20mph. The car weighs 10x as much as you and the slowest it's going is 25mph. It is very frustrating to have to assume everyone is out to kill you, but that goes with the territory when you're riding on the same streets as 1 ton rolling missiles. It would not be smart to relax one bit since even if the law changed, cars blow their tires, brakes give out, old people still drive, etc.