5 ms·

Ivory's a beautiful, extremely useful substance; outlawing it makes as little sense as outlawing alcohol, marijuana or beef. What needs to be done is to create

by wtbob 10y ago

Ivory's a beautiful, extremely useful substance; outlawing it makes as little sense as outlawing alcohol, marijuana or beef. What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Cattle will never go extinct because people like hamburgers; the idea of elephants going extinct solely because people like ivory is mad. Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever.

adamnemecek 10y ago
> Ivory's a beautiful, extremely useful substance; Beautiful maybe, useful, not really. > outlawing it makes as little sense as outlawing alcohol, Not really, prior to 2008 when the CITES relaxed ivory sale regulation, poaching was minimal. The current poaching crisis is a result of this relaxation. Not every good behaves the same way as alcohol. > What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Not possible for ecological, zoological economical and ethical reasons. Elephants take at least 20 years to start growing tusks but the 'big tuskers' are ~50 years old. Also, you won't be able to produce ivory cheaper than a poacher who doesn't have to invest into the elephant. Also elephants aren't domesticated. Also they are an extremely intelligent and social species and one of the species that come up in "non-human personhood" discussions. > What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Right. Establishing legal frameworks and enforcing laws in Africa is very easy. > Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever. It's a lot more complex than that.
- jfoutz 10y ago
  I've argued this before, media shaming could be really effective here. Ivory dealers as incompetent villains. Pathetic ivory consumers. It's not an addiction, it's a status symbol. Destroy the status. Superman vs the kkk was super effective.
- optforfon 10y ago
  I saw plenty of domesticated elephants in Thailand (and I assume all of South East Asia). Are African elephant some how different when it comes to this?
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    Those were tamed. Domesticated means selectively bred. Those animals that you saw might have seemed tame, but they are actually pretty dangerous.
- wtbob 10y ago
  > Elephants take at least 20 years to start growing tusks but the 'big tuskers' are ~50 years old. Trees also take decades to grow, and yet tree farms are a viable economy. > Also, you won't be able to produce ivory cheaper than a poacher who doesn't have to invest into the elephant. So the elephant rancher shoots the poacher. That's what we used to do when cattle rustling was a thing, and it worked pretty well. > Also they are an extremely intelligent and social species and one of the species that come up in "non-human personhood" discussions. Frankly, I don't care. Pigs are pretty damned intelligent too, but bacon tastes wonderful. Neither pigs nor elephants are men, and I'm find with killing them. > Establishing legal frameworks and enforcing laws in Africa is very easy. It was easier when Africa was better-run, but it can be done again. > > Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever. > It's a lot more complex than that. No, that is exactly the problem. Species which are useful to man survive; species which are not die; species which are inimical to man are destroyed. We're talking about exterminating mosquitoes, for Pete's sake! If you want an animal to survive, figure out a way for it to be in someone powerful's interest. The rest will follow as day follows the night.
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    > Trees also take decades to grow, and yet tree farms are a viable economy. How much does it cost to grow a tree? It costs quite a bit to raise an elephant. > So the elephant rancher shoots the poacher. That's what we used to do when cattle rustling was a thing, and it worked pretty well. You are implying that in your plan there would be no elephants in the wild right? Also can you tell me a bit about your knowledge of animal and in particular elephant husbandry? > Frankly, I don't care. Pigs are pretty damned intelligent too, but bacon tastes wonderful. Neither pigs nor elephants are men, and I'm find with killing them. Well not everyone is a psychopath so there's that. > It was easier when Africa was better-run, but it can be done again. I like your detailed plan. Also what African countries in particular are you talking about? > We're talking about exterminating mosquitoes, for Pete's sake! Idk how that's related? Do you have some device that turns poachers into mosquitoes? Do you? > If you want an animal to survive, figure out a way for it to be in someone powerful's interest. The rest will follow as day follows the night. Fuck yeah, fuck ethics, fuck empathy for intelligent beings, fuck ecosystems, libertarianism fuck yeah! On some level I envy you that you have one belief system you think works for everything.

by wtbob 10y ago

adamnemecek 10y ago

> Ivory's a beautiful, extremely useful substance; Beautiful maybe, useful, not really. > outlawing it makes as little sense as outlawing alcohol, Not really, prior to 2008 when the CITES relaxed ivory sale regulation, poaching was minimal. The current poaching crisis is a result of this relaxation. Not every good behaves the same way as alcohol. > What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Not possible for ecological, zoological economical and ethical reasons. Elephants take at least 20 years to start growing tusks but the 'big tuskers' are ~50 years old. Also, you won't be able to produce ivory cheaper than a poacher who doesn't have to invest into the elephant. Also elephants aren't domesticated. Also they are an extremely intelligent and social species and one of the species that come up in "non-human personhood" discussions. > What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Right. Establishing legal frameworks and enforcing laws in Africa is very easy. > Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever. It's a lot more complex than that.

jfoutz 10y ago
I've argued this before, media shaming could be really effective here. Ivory dealers as incompetent villains. Pathetic ivory consumers. It's not an addiction, it's a status symbol. Destroy the status. Superman vs the kkk was super effective.
optforfon 10y ago
I saw plenty of domesticated elephants in Thailand (and I assume all of South East Asia). Are African elephant some how different when it comes to this?
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  Those were tamed. Domesticated means selectively bred. Those animals that you saw might have seemed tame, but they are actually pretty dangerous.
wtbob 10y ago
> Elephants take at least 20 years to start growing tusks but the 'big tuskers' are ~50 years old. Trees also take decades to grow, and yet tree farms are a viable economy. > Also, you won't be able to produce ivory cheaper than a poacher who doesn't have to invest into the elephant. So the elephant rancher shoots the poacher. That's what we used to do when cattle rustling was a thing, and it worked pretty well. > Also they are an extremely intelligent and social species and one of the species that come up in "non-human personhood" discussions. Frankly, I don't care. Pigs are pretty damned intelligent too, but bacon tastes wonderful. Neither pigs nor elephants are men, and I'm find with killing them. > Establishing legal frameworks and enforcing laws in Africa is very easy. It was easier when Africa was better-run, but it can be done again. > > Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever. > It's a lot more complex than that. No, that is exactly the problem. Species which are useful to man survive; species which are not die; species which are inimical to man are destroyed. We're talking about exterminating mosquitoes, for Pete's sake! If you want an animal to survive, figure out a way for it to be in someone powerful's interest. The rest will follow as day follows the night.
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  > Trees also take decades to grow, and yet tree farms are a viable economy. How much does it cost to grow a tree? It costs quite a bit to raise an elephant. > So the elephant rancher shoots the poacher. That's what we used to do when cattle rustling was a thing, and it worked pretty well. You are implying that in your plan there would be no elephants in the wild right? Also can you tell me a bit about your knowledge of animal and in particular elephant husbandry? > Frankly, I don't care. Pigs are pretty damned intelligent too, but bacon tastes wonderful. Neither pigs nor elephants are men, and I'm find with killing them. Well not everyone is a psychopath so there's that. > It was easier when Africa was better-run, but it can be done again. I like your detailed plan. Also what African countries in particular are you talking about? > We're talking about exterminating mosquitoes, for Pete's sake! Idk how that's related? Do you have some device that turns poachers into mosquitoes? Do you? > If you want an animal to survive, figure out a way for it to be in someone powerful's interest. The rest will follow as day follows the night. Fuck yeah, fuck ethics, fuck empathy for intelligent beings, fuck ecosystems, libertarianism fuck yeah! On some level I envy you that you have one belief system you think works for everything.