5 ms·

It would be much better to soak some ivory in cyanide or something stronger and get it into market.

by eknkc 10y ago

adamnemecek 10y ago
Just outlawing it might be simpler.
- wtbob 10y ago
  Ivory's a beautiful, extremely useful substance; outlawing it makes as little sense as outlawing alcohol, marijuana or beef. What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Cattle will never go extinct because people like hamburgers; the idea of elephants going extinct solely because people like ivory is mad. Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever.
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    > Ivory's a beautiful, extremely useful substance; Beautiful maybe, useful, not really. > outlawing it makes as little sense as outlawing alcohol, Not really, prior to 2008 when the CITES relaxed ivory sale regulation, poaching was minimal. The current poaching crisis is a result of this relaxation. Not every good behaves the same way as alcohol. > What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Not possible for ecological, zoological economical and ethical reasons. Elephants take at least 20 years to start growing tusks but the 'big tuskers' are ~50 years old. Also, you won't be able to produce ivory cheaper than a poacher who doesn't have to invest into the elephant. Also elephants aren't domesticated. Also they are an extremely intelligent and social species and one of the species that come up in "non-human personhood" discussions. > What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Right. Establishing legal frameworks and enforcing laws in Africa is very easy. > Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever. It's a lot more complex than that.
    - jfoutz 10y ago
      I've argued this before, media shaming could be really effective here. Ivory dealers as incompetent villains. Pathetic ivory consumers. It's not an addiction, it's a status symbol. Destroy the status. Superman vs the kkk was super effective.
    - optforfon 10y ago
      I saw plenty of domesticated elephants in Thailand (and I assume all of South East Asia). Are African elephant some how different when it comes to this?
      - adamnemecek 10y ago
        Those were tamed. Domesticated means selectively bred. Those animals that you saw might have seemed tame, but they are actually pretty dangerous.
    - wtbob 10y ago
      > Elephants take at least 20 years to start growing tusks but the 'big tuskers' are ~50 years old. Trees also take decades to grow, and yet tree farms are a viable economy. > Also, you won't be able to produce ivory cheaper than a poacher who doesn't have to invest into the elephant. So the elephant rancher shoots the poacher. That's what we used to do when cattle rustling was a thing, and it worked pretty well. > Also they are an extremely intelligent and social species and one of the species that come up in "non-human personhood" discussions. Frankly, I don't care. Pigs are pretty damned intelligent too, but bacon tastes wonderful. Neither pigs nor elephants are men, and I'm find with killing them. > Establishing legal frameworks and enforcing laws in Africa is very easy. It was easier when Africa was better-run, but it can be done again. > > Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever. > It's a lot more complex than that. No, that is exactly the problem. Species which are useful to man survive; species which are not die; species which are inimical to man are destroyed. We're talking about exterminating mosquitoes, for Pete's sake! If you want an animal to survive, figure out a way for it to be in someone powerful's interest. The rest will follow as day follows the night.
Something1234 10y ago
Would the cyanide slowly leach out when people touch it or something like that?
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Tusks are used in "traditional medicines", among other uses. Even the threat of poisoned ivory would be a strong disincentive for that market. Permanently stained tusks have been used to dissuade material use (e.g., statues or figures).
  - neximo64 10y ago
    Would not stained tusks have an impact on the elephants perception of each other? We as human beings have all sorts of perceptions on obesity, skin colour, hair colour..
    - eriknstr 10y ago
      I think what eknkc suggested was that the cyanide was to be applied to ivory which had already been collected, not on live elephants.
      - neximo64 10y ago
        I'm not referring to cyanide, i'm referring to the colour staining of ivory on animals that are alive. The colour stops poachers wanting to kill the animal, but does it not impact the animals life - that's the question i'm asking.
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      The rhino horn dye story appears significantly overstated, looking further into it: https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing_rhino_horn_and_elephant_ivory https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing... [I]n terms of injecting dye mixed with poison into the horn (also discussed in our 'thorny issues'), it has been proven that rhino horn is not porous and that a liquid mix does not diffuse throughout the horn. In other words, the poison/dye mix remains in the drilled holes, making it relatively easy to remove and “detox” the horn if it is, indeed, to be consumed. Any remaining external discolouration can be sanded off. And tellingly, dyeing/poisoning Sabi Sands’ rhinos’ horns did not prevent animals from subsequently being poached.
jl6 10y ago
Relevant: https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing_rhino_horn_and_elephant_ivory https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing...
jl6 10y ago
Relevant: https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing_rhino_horn_and_elephant_ivory https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing...

It would be much better to soak some ivory in cyanide or something stronger and get it into market.

by eknkc 10y ago

It would be much better to soak some ivory in cyanide or something stronger and get it into market.

adamnemecek 10y ago

Just outlawing it might be simpler.

wtbob 10y ago
Ivory's a beautiful, extremely useful substance; outlawing it makes as little sense as outlawing alcohol, marijuana or beef. What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Cattle will never go extinct because people like hamburgers; the idea of elephants going extinct solely because people like ivory is mad. Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever.
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  > Ivory's a beautiful, extremely useful substance; Beautiful maybe, useful, not really. > outlawing it makes as little sense as outlawing alcohol, Not really, prior to 2008 when the CITES relaxed ivory sale regulation, poaching was minimal. The current poaching crisis is a result of this relaxation. Not every good behaves the same way as alcohol. > What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Not possible for ecological, zoological economical and ethical reasons. Elephants take at least 20 years to start growing tusks but the 'big tuskers' are ~50 years old. Also, you won't be able to produce ivory cheaper than a poacher who doesn't have to invest into the elephant. Also elephants aren't domesticated. Also they are an extremely intelligent and social species and one of the species that come up in "non-human personhood" discussions. > What needs to be done is to create the appropriate legal framework and property rights to give Africans an incentive to ranch elephants. Right. Establishing legal frameworks and enforcing laws in Africa is very easy. > Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever. It's a lot more complex than that.
  - jfoutz 10y ago
    I've argued this before, media shaming could be really effective here. Ivory dealers as incompetent villains. Pathetic ivory consumers. It's not an addiction, it's a status symbol. Destroy the status. Superman vs the kkk was super effective.
  - optforfon 10y ago
    I saw plenty of domesticated elephants in Thailand (and I assume all of South East Asia). Are African elephant some how different when it comes to this?
    - adamnemecek 10y ago
      Those were tamed. Domesticated means selectively bred. Those animals that you saw might have seemed tame, but they are actually pretty dangerous.
  - wtbob 10y ago
    > Elephants take at least 20 years to start growing tusks but the 'big tuskers' are ~50 years old. Trees also take decades to grow, and yet tree farms are a viable economy. > Also, you won't be able to produce ivory cheaper than a poacher who doesn't have to invest into the elephant. So the elephant rancher shoots the poacher. That's what we used to do when cattle rustling was a thing, and it worked pretty well. > Also they are an extremely intelligent and social species and one of the species that come up in "non-human personhood" discussions. Frankly, I don't care. Pigs are pretty damned intelligent too, but bacon tastes wonderful. Neither pigs nor elephants are men, and I'm find with killing them. > Establishing legal frameworks and enforcing laws in Africa is very easy. It was easier when Africa was better-run, but it can be done again. > > Elephants are going extinct because no-one has an interest in keeping them alive. Give someone a reason to keep them alive, and the species will last forever. > It's a lot more complex than that. No, that is exactly the problem. Species which are useful to man survive; species which are not die; species which are inimical to man are destroyed. We're talking about exterminating mosquitoes, for Pete's sake! If you want an animal to survive, figure out a way for it to be in someone powerful's interest. The rest will follow as day follows the night.

Something1234 10y ago

Would the cyanide slowly leach out when people touch it or something like that?

dredmorbius 10y ago
Tusks are used in "traditional medicines", among other uses. Even the threat of poisoned ivory would be a strong disincentive for that market. Permanently stained tusks have been used to dissuade material use (e.g., statues or figures).
- neximo64 10y ago
  Would not stained tusks have an impact on the elephants perception of each other? We as human beings have all sorts of perceptions on obesity, skin colour, hair colour..
  - eriknstr 10y ago
    I think what eknkc suggested was that the cyanide was to be applied to ivory which had already been collected, not on live elephants.
    - neximo64 10y ago
      I'm not referring to cyanide, i'm referring to the colour staining of ivory on animals that are alive. The colour stops poachers wanting to kill the animal, but does it not impact the animals life - that's the question i'm asking.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    The rhino horn dye story appears significantly overstated, looking further into it: https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing_rhino_horn_and_elephant_ivory https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing... [I]n terms of injecting dye mixed with poison into the horn (also discussed in our 'thorny issues'), it has been proven that rhino horn is not porous and that a liquid mix does not diffuse throughout the horn. In other words, the poison/dye mix remains in the drilled holes, making it relatively easy to remove and “detox” the horn if it is, indeed, to be consumed. Any remaining external discolouration can be sanded off. And tellingly, dyeing/poisoning Sabi Sands’ rhinos’ horns did not prevent animals from subsequently being poached.

jl6 10y ago

Relevant: https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing_rhino_horn_and_elephant_ivory https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing...

jl6 10y ago

Relevant: https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing_rhino_horn_and_elephant_ivory https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/dyeing...