5 ms·

Is this including the Joel Test? While that makes more sense for the land of native applications over the web, working with a company that is 0/12 is a vastly m

Is this including the Joel Test? While that makes more sense for the land of native applications over the web, working with a company that is 0/12 is a vastly more terrible experience than 12/12. Granted a number score doesn't matter much when certain answers have more weight and you could argue someone would've come up with it eventually. When I first heard about it though, I immediately started working on getting better answers for the company I work for and continually do so. I can't speak to what you're talking about as I somehow glossed over that but maybe that's its own problem. It's easy to fanboy when something great comes along without understanding the years of opinion that went into it.

user5994461 10y ago
12/12 is an indicator that the test was likely filled by a person who do not understand what do the checked items mean.
- merb 10y ago
  Especially 9.: > Do you use the best tools money can buy? if you only use the best tools __money__ can buy, your development team is probably really bad.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Why not? Many good tools are paid. And developers need the good tools to be productive.
    - flukus 10y ago
      I guess they mean that a lot of the best tools are open source, no money required.
      - user5994461 10y ago
        > a lot of the best tools are open source That is simply NOT true.
  - quantumhobbit 10y ago
    The test dates from around 2000. Back then a lot more tools were paid closed source.
  - onion2k 10y ago
    "the best tools money can buy" means the best at any price, not necessarily the highest price. It includes free.
    - merb 10y ago
      it's still untrue. open source could not always be bought with __money__ it can be "bought" with __resources__
      - onion2k 10y ago
        I think you being a too literal in your interpretation of the phrase. 'the best money can buy' is figurative - it means 'the best available, regardless of circumstances'. The 'money' part is figurative; it represents resources. I think it's a little unfair on Joel Spolsky's team to suggest they might not be good at what they do based on a semantic argument around whether 'the best money can buy' can be interpreted as using resources or just cold hard cash. Considering the things they've built they're very evidently a highly accomplished group of developers. I don't see any need to argue about this; they're obviously using what they believe are the best tools for the job. You can tell that from looking at their results. Whether they're using free, open source things or they're buying tools isn't relevant, and certainly isn't a sign that "your development team is probably really bad". They're clearly not bad. They built Trello and StackOverflow.
        w0rd-driven 10y ago
        I totally agree with your assessment of the wording. Money, to me at least, never equates to closed or open source. Fortunately, at least with stack overflow jobs, you can kind of self-assess this if they list tools like JIRA or Trello. You can also ask questions to see if they're actively using what they claim. If they aren't singing the praises of their toolsets and checked that answer off, you can generally assume they're lying. If the test was updated for the web and native in a single set of data points, some companies would incorrectly score low because they focus on one or the other. I think it could use some kind of polish after 16 years but only to remove very narrow interpretations that derail discussions like this.
  - di4na 10y ago
    Hardware is a thing too. I post that from my work station. Bad cheap laptop, one really small and 12 years old monitor... Yeah that company is shitty. You really can't get how important that list is before working for a 0/12 company. Really.
    - merb 10y ago
      well even on hardware. on my daily base I use a macbook pro late 2013. however we also built a workstation from ebay components. the workstation is as fast/faster than any computer you can buy at the moment, however money wasn't the problem, more the resources to get everything, resources would be the correct word, not money. not every resource is buyable. and some stuff on the list also only applies to bigger companies.
      - di4na 10y ago
        The macbook pro 2013 is probably 10 time more powerful than the thing i use. And your workstation probably used 10 time more money than what my company allows as a budget. I am not saying everything should be there but yes. There is totally a point to the test. Being really low means you are in a shitty place. Being high means nothing.
        merb 10y ago
        well our standard developer workstation is around 1000€-1600€ for 4-5 years. so my laptop will still need to be used one or two years, actually it's also over the budget, but basically if there is a need for it we buy it and some people are just way more productive with a mac since they knew it form day one, however most new hire's actually used linux/windows so they never want it or only want it cause others have it. it really depends on the needs. we are a java job and I even encourage everybody to use IntelliJ Ultimate, however some still prefer Eclipse and I let them use it, even if I dislike it, it's still their preference after all.
        di4na 10y ago
        Oh totally i think we are talking of different things. I have to dev on a shitty netbook, on a 17" 4:3 15 years old external monitor and i can't use any external dependencies repository...

user5994461 10y ago

12/12 is an indicator that the test was likely filled by a person who do not understand what do the checked items mean.

merb 10y ago
Especially 9.: > Do you use the best tools money can buy? if you only use the best tools __money__ can buy, your development team is probably really bad.
- user5994461 10y ago
  Why not? Many good tools are paid. And developers need the good tools to be productive.
  - flukus 10y ago
    I guess they mean that a lot of the best tools are open source, no money required.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      > a lot of the best tools are open source That is simply NOT true.
- quantumhobbit 10y ago
  The test dates from around 2000. Back then a lot more tools were paid closed source.
- onion2k 10y ago
  "the best tools money can buy" means the best at any price, not necessarily the highest price. It includes free.
  - merb 10y ago
    it's still untrue. open source could not always be bought with __money__ it can be "bought" with __resources__
    - onion2k 10y ago
      I think you being a too literal in your interpretation of the phrase. 'the best money can buy' is figurative - it means 'the best available, regardless of circumstances'. The 'money' part is figurative; it represents resources. I think it's a little unfair on Joel Spolsky's team to suggest they might not be good at what they do based on a semantic argument around whether 'the best money can buy' can be interpreted as using resources or just cold hard cash. Considering the things they've built they're very evidently a highly accomplished group of developers. I don't see any need to argue about this; they're obviously using what they believe are the best tools for the job. You can tell that from looking at their results. Whether they're using free, open source things or they're buying tools isn't relevant, and certainly isn't a sign that "your development team is probably really bad". They're clearly not bad. They built Trello and StackOverflow.
      - w0rd-driven 10y ago
        I totally agree with your assessment of the wording. Money, to me at least, never equates to closed or open source. Fortunately, at least with stack overflow jobs, you can kind of self-assess this if they list tools like JIRA or Trello. You can also ask questions to see if they're actively using what they claim. If they aren't singing the praises of their toolsets and checked that answer off, you can generally assume they're lying. If the test was updated for the web and native in a single set of data points, some companies would incorrectly score low because they focus on one or the other. I think it could use some kind of polish after 16 years but only to remove very narrow interpretations that derail discussions like this.
- di4na 10y ago
  Hardware is a thing too. I post that from my work station. Bad cheap laptop, one really small and 12 years old monitor... Yeah that company is shitty. You really can't get how important that list is before working for a 0/12 company. Really.
  - merb 10y ago
    well even on hardware. on my daily base I use a macbook pro late 2013. however we also built a workstation from ebay components. the workstation is as fast/faster than any computer you can buy at the moment, however money wasn't the problem, more the resources to get everything, resources would be the correct word, not money. not every resource is buyable. and some stuff on the list also only applies to bigger companies.
    - di4na 10y ago
      The macbook pro 2013 is probably 10 time more powerful than the thing i use. And your workstation probably used 10 time more money than what my company allows as a budget. I am not saying everything should be there but yes. There is totally a point to the test. Being really low means you are in a shitty place. Being high means nothing.
      - merb 10y ago
        well our standard developer workstation is around 1000€-1600€ for 4-5 years. so my laptop will still need to be used one or two years, actually it's also over the budget, but basically if there is a need for it we buy it and some people are just way more productive with a mac since they knew it form day one, however most new hire's actually used linux/windows so they never want it or only want it cause others have it. it really depends on the needs. we are a java job and I even encourage everybody to use IntelliJ Ultimate, however some still prefer Eclipse and I let them use it, even if I dislike it, it's still their preference after all.
        di4na 10y ago
        Oh totally i think we are talking of different things. I have to dev on a shitty netbook, on a 17" 4:3 15 years old external monitor and i can't use any external dependencies repository...