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Joel's point is not neccasarily about "stickiness", just the need to apply. Great developers form a network of people who know them. When they want to switch jo

Joel's point is not neccasarily about "stickiness", just the need to apply. Great developers form a network of people who know them. When they want to switch jobs, they typically don't go " open on the market" and rather talk to a friend in a specific place, do an interview for formalities sake, and get hired. There was no "applying" or sending a resume to a hiring manager. Also, often companies go to them, not the other way around. Joel's point is that great developers don't need to put themselves on market at all in order to get a job.

Terr_ 10y ago
> Great developers form a network of people who know them. How do you know it isn't there other way around? That networking is crucial to building a reputation as a "good developer"?
- bostik 10y ago
  Engineers like to gossip, and most humans have a tendency to flock together with like-minded folk. Hence practically any engineer will be part of their organic network, whether they realise it or not.
  - quantumhobbit 10y ago
    Maybe something is wrong with me but I'm an engineer and I don't gossip, nor do I know other engineers who gossip. Managers gossip. Testers gossip. Designers sometimes gossip. But in my experience developers not so much.
  - Terr_ 10y ago
    Insofar as the generalization "Engineers like to gossip" goes, the difference is they gossip about problems, not their resume-bullet-point-achievements. Plus, much of that gossip is going to be with co-workers, which doesn't do you as much good when it comes to finding a job with people at another company company.
    - morgante 10y ago
      > Plus, much of that gossip is going to be with co-workers, which doesn't do you as much good when it comes to finding a job with people at another company company. Of course it does, because people don't work at the same company forever. By far the biggest contributors to my network are former co-workers.
      - vonmoltke 10y ago
        > Of course it does, because people don't work at the same company forever. You obviously haven't spent time in the defense industry.
        morgante 10y ago
        No I haven't, but there's no need to be rude about it. More importantly, I'm obviously talking about the average. On average, developers will change jobs every few years.
        user5994461 10y ago
        Last company I was at in France, the average stay was 6-7 years. It's a decent company, nothing particularly great or notable. The numbers are similar for other regional companies from what I've heard of. It's higher for a few big old companies (usually in embedded, defence or aerospace). We can assume that the stays are way shorter in SV/NY/London but please keep in mind that they are not representative of the rest of the world.
        vonmoltke 10y ago
        > No I haven't, but there's no need to be rude about it. I didn't intend to be rude, though I did intend to be snippy. > More importantly, I'm obviously talking about the average. On average, developers will change jobs every few years. First off, I didn't think it was obvious you were talking about the average. Generally when I see comments like that they are presented as some sort of near-universal truth (which is why I reacted the way I did). Second, I don't agree that developers change jobs every few years on average. I only think that is true of a subset of developers that are overrepresented on HN. My entire career so far has been in Dallas, and non-contract developers who turn over jobs that fast are not typical here.

Terr_ 10y ago

> Great developers form a network of people who know them. How do you know it isn't there other way around? That networking is crucial to building a reputation as a "good developer"?

bostik 10y ago
Engineers like to gossip, and most humans have a tendency to flock together with like-minded folk. Hence practically any engineer will be part of their organic network, whether they realise it or not.
- quantumhobbit 10y ago
  Maybe something is wrong with me but I'm an engineer and I don't gossip, nor do I know other engineers who gossip. Managers gossip. Testers gossip. Designers sometimes gossip. But in my experience developers not so much.
- Terr_ 10y ago
  Insofar as the generalization "Engineers like to gossip" goes, the difference is they gossip about problems, not their resume-bullet-point-achievements. Plus, much of that gossip is going to be with co-workers, which doesn't do you as much good when it comes to finding a job with people at another company company.
  - morgante 10y ago
    > Plus, much of that gossip is going to be with co-workers, which doesn't do you as much good when it comes to finding a job with people at another company company. Of course it does, because people don't work at the same company forever. By far the biggest contributors to my network are former co-workers.
    - vonmoltke 10y ago
      > Of course it does, because people don't work at the same company forever. You obviously haven't spent time in the defense industry.
      - morgante 10y ago
        No I haven't, but there's no need to be rude about it. More importantly, I'm obviously talking about the average. On average, developers will change jobs every few years.
        user5994461 10y ago
        Last company I was at in France, the average stay was 6-7 years. It's a decent company, nothing particularly great or notable. The numbers are similar for other regional companies from what I've heard of. It's higher for a few big old companies (usually in embedded, defence or aerospace). We can assume that the stays are way shorter in SV/NY/London but please keep in mind that they are not representative of the rest of the world.
        vonmoltke 10y ago
        > No I haven't, but there's no need to be rude about it. I didn't intend to be rude, though I did intend to be snippy. > More importantly, I'm obviously talking about the average. On average, developers will change jobs every few years. First off, I didn't think it was obvious you were talking about the average. Generally when I see comments like that they are presented as some sort of near-universal truth (which is why I reacted the way I did). Second, I don't agree that developers change jobs every few years on average. I only think that is true of a subset of developers that are overrepresented on HN. My entire career so far has been in Dallas, and non-contract developers who turn over jobs that fast are not typical here.