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There is a regular pattern I've seen with a lot of subreddits where they initially start off being fairly lax in what they allow. Eventually the "old timers" ge

by dageshi 10y ago

There is a regular pattern I've seen with a lot of subreddits where they initially start off being fairly lax in what they allow. Eventually the "old timers" get bored of seeing the same types of content being repeated and so they come up with rules for the sub. If the community is small enough this has the effect of putting off new users from posting and drastically cutting post volume. If the subreddit is big enough on the other hand then this often improves the quality of discussion and effectively reduces the amount of what the old timers consider to be low quality content.

Noseshine 10y ago
On a larger scale just look at Wikipedia and Stackoverflow and the discussions and blog posts about how bad they have become especially for newcomers the last few years. Maybe a multi-layered approach could be tried, where people can choose to see content on different layers? Long-time users fed up with mundane questions only get to see "advanced" posts, but beginners can still post a million "How do I (standard task)" questions without bothering anyone else. Instead of trying to split the people and direct them to different sites use layers. Same could be done with "funny" content (reddit especially, where every attempt of a serious discussion is swamped by 80% posts form people who don't really know anything about the subject, don't care, and just want to be entertained). So instead of trying to achieve what now seems to be impossible I think we might actually be able to find better ways to keep disparate users in the same forum. The problem with trying to separate beginners and advanced etc. is hat people change. What was a beginner becomes a an advanced user, but they don't see that they should shift to a different site for "advanced users". After all, they've always been here! So sites like SO or Wikipedia seem to have a natural tendency to eventually become more and more beginner-unfriendly over time.
- stuartaxelowen 10y ago
  The problem is that everyone's post is "advanced", just like every bug is priority 0.
  - the8472 10y ago
    Then let others rate the complexity/novelty/nicheness? Of course asking users to rate on multiple dimensions is a problem on its own. It may come off as elitist, but it may also help to find newcomers things they can contribute to. Similar to "good first bug" tagging on some bug trackers it could also help others to filter out things they can help with or that are too boring for them to bother with. Efficient allocation of expertise is necessary.
    - internaut 10y ago
      Complex rating systems do not work. Even meta tagging on porn sites doesn't work properly for that and they have the most avid searchers. It would be better as a baseline to use the forum's memory as a filter for each user instead of coming up with an objective standard for what is novel or complex to them. I also believe we can extend this forum memory concept by some kind of generation of valid information (a sort of autotldr bot) to be inserted into newbie threads. This bot could then be rewarded by users if it gets a 'hit' because you're right at the point where somebody was helped out so you could suggest a small payment of $0.10 or something. That would be a nice way to scale the forum to large numbers of users and you could also reward the sources of the original information so those users get credit for their aid.
      - the8472 10y ago
        > Complex rating systems do not work. Yeah, that is my main concern too. Maybe instead of tallying up/downvotes verbatim one could do clustering analysis on the voters. Votes by people who have similar voting-behavior might be of more interest to a user than votes by voters who have uncorrelated or even inversely correlated behavior. > It would be better as a baseline to use the forum's memory as a filter for each user Not sure what you're suggesting.
        internaut 10y ago
        > Yeah, that is my main concern too. Maybe instead of tallying up/downvotes verbatim one could do clustering analysis on the voters. Votes by people who have similar voting-behavior might be of more interest to a user than votes by voters who have uncorrelated or even inversely correlated behavior. That's the essential idea behind Amazon and Netflix recommendations so it is quite workable. >> It would be better as a baseline to use the forum's memory as a filter for each user > Not sure what you're suggesting. I'm saying you have this massive haul of threads of which the majority are never referenced because they happened in the past. Normally users need to search this backlog but often don't know the right search keywords to begin searching. Thus they ask the same old questions of the old-timers who become crankier and crustier by the day because of this. Since the same questions are asked multiple times you should be able to tally the answers together into a cogent form in a similar way to the method that autotldr bot uses on Reddit to summarize news stories. Then you could present this information in a currently running thread that appears to ask the same questions.
RamenJunkie_ 10y ago
I think another side effect is that as the rules get enforced more, there's less decedenting opinion, for fear of starting a big flame war and getting banned, or the people who would post opposite view points end up banned after not "being polite". So the subreddit just turns into a big feel good circle jerk over a topic which tends to drive new people away.

by dageshi 10y ago

Noseshine 10y ago

On a larger scale just look at Wikipedia and Stackoverflow and the discussions and blog posts about how bad they have become especially for newcomers the last few years. Maybe a multi-layered approach could be tried, where people can choose to see content on different layers? Long-time users fed up with mundane questions only get to see "advanced" posts, but beginners can still post a million "How do I (standard task)" questions without bothering anyone else. Instead of trying to split the people and direct them to different sites use layers. Same could be done with "funny" content (reddit especially, where every attempt of a serious discussion is swamped by 80% posts form people who don't really know anything about the subject, don't care, and just want to be entertained). So instead of trying to achieve what now seems to be impossible I think we might actually be able to find better ways to keep disparate users in the same forum. The problem with trying to separate beginners and advanced etc. is hat people change. What was a beginner becomes a an advanced user, but they don't see that they should shift to a different site for "advanced users". After all, they've always been here! So sites like SO or Wikipedia seem to have a natural tendency to eventually become more and more beginner-unfriendly over time.

stuartaxelowen 10y ago
The problem is that everyone's post is "advanced", just like every bug is priority 0.
- the8472 10y ago
  Then let others rate the complexity/novelty/nicheness? Of course asking users to rate on multiple dimensions is a problem on its own. It may come off as elitist, but it may also help to find newcomers things they can contribute to. Similar to "good first bug" tagging on some bug trackers it could also help others to filter out things they can help with or that are too boring for them to bother with. Efficient allocation of expertise is necessary.
  - internaut 10y ago
    Complex rating systems do not work. Even meta tagging on porn sites doesn't work properly for that and they have the most avid searchers. It would be better as a baseline to use the forum's memory as a filter for each user instead of coming up with an objective standard for what is novel or complex to them. I also believe we can extend this forum memory concept by some kind of generation of valid information (a sort of autotldr bot) to be inserted into newbie threads. This bot could then be rewarded by users if it gets a 'hit' because you're right at the point where somebody was helped out so you could suggest a small payment of $0.10 or something. That would be a nice way to scale the forum to large numbers of users and you could also reward the sources of the original information so those users get credit for their aid.
    - the8472 10y ago
      > Complex rating systems do not work. Yeah, that is my main concern too. Maybe instead of tallying up/downvotes verbatim one could do clustering analysis on the voters. Votes by people who have similar voting-behavior might be of more interest to a user than votes by voters who have uncorrelated or even inversely correlated behavior. > It would be better as a baseline to use the forum's memory as a filter for each user Not sure what you're suggesting.
      - internaut 10y ago
        > Yeah, that is my main concern too. Maybe instead of tallying up/downvotes verbatim one could do clustering analysis on the voters. Votes by people who have similar voting-behavior might be of more interest to a user than votes by voters who have uncorrelated or even inversely correlated behavior. That's the essential idea behind Amazon and Netflix recommendations so it is quite workable. >> It would be better as a baseline to use the forum's memory as a filter for each user > Not sure what you're suggesting. I'm saying you have this massive haul of threads of which the majority are never referenced because they happened in the past. Normally users need to search this backlog but often don't know the right search keywords to begin searching. Thus they ask the same old questions of the old-timers who become crankier and crustier by the day because of this. Since the same questions are asked multiple times you should be able to tally the answers together into a cogent form in a similar way to the method that autotldr bot uses on Reddit to summarize news stories. Then you could present this information in a currently running thread that appears to ask the same questions.

RamenJunkie_ 10y ago

I think another side effect is that as the rules get enforced more, there's less decedenting opinion, for fear of starting a big flame war and getting banned, or the people who would post opposite view points end up banned after not "being polite". So the subreddit just turns into a big feel good circle jerk over a topic which tends to drive new people away.