4 ms·

Yeah, so the thing about stuff like this is that it is inherently classist. There are 2 things at play here: - knowing what rules are permissible to break high

by GuiA 10y ago

Yeah, so the thing about stuff like this is that it is inherently classist. There are 2 things at play here: - knowing what rules are permissible to break highly depends on your upbringing and social status. In other words, "the rules that don't matter" for Paul Graham are the rules that don't matter for a rich old white dude. - it's much easier to break the rules when you know that there will be no consequences because of your wealth/social status . Kids whose parents paid for a Stanford education will "delight in breaking rules" much more than the hard working kid from immigrant parents desperate to fit in in a world where no one looks like her. This is exactly the kind of privileged rhetoric that people who push for more diversity and sensitivity in Silicon Valley and tech are trying to highlight/stave off.

davemel37 10y ago
I think you are making some pretty broad assumptions about a whole bunch of things. First, this very article is about an immigrant, with no status, money or connections, creating opportunity for himself. Obviously, I am gonna be somewhat biased by my own upbringing, so I can't be truly objective (other than knowing that I grew up in a vastly different upbringing that the folks you describe, yet still feel there are some rules that should be broken and others that shouldn't be crossed. My only two points I would make are: 1. YC Funds a pretty diverse crowd from all over the world if I understand correctly (I have no direct knowledge.) 2. Founding a successful startup isn't for everyone, and maybe it favors some over others due to life circumstances, but that doesn't change the reality that to innovate and succeed, you might need that "naughty" mentality, regardless of whether it came from a place of privilege or not. Finally, In my experience, persistence is by far a more important trait for success than almost anything else, and the most driven, focused, persistent people are often the ones that fought against all odds to break free from their underprivileged circumstances, much like the immigrant you described. I am not sure they feel a need to play by arbitrary rules or not, but even if they do, they often rise above through sheer force of will...and often that persistence, and will power brings them to do things that open doors by ignoring propriety and breaking down barriers and limitations that live in their head more than anywhere else. I might be biased about all sorts of privilege and might be blind to the class bias you refer to, I do not know...but my gut and experience tell me that individuals and their personal decisions matter much more than their class and circumstances. (Not discounting those other factors, just discounting the role they actually play in reality relative their own choices and of course colored by my own bias.)
- GuiA 10y ago
  I've worked with thousands of teenagers from underserved/underprivileged communities at this point, in 3 different countries, teaching them how to code, but also interview and fit in within larger tech companies. When they are exposed to an environment they have never been in before - for example the tech industry/startup world - many of them are overwhelmed, confused, and feel like they have to tread very carefully because they don't want to lose the opportunity to make $100k a year as an engineer when the other option is retail/service jobs. In those cases, they do their best to follow the rules and be on their best behavior, and are not going to take any risks of being naughty. This is not at odds with being driven, focused, persistent etc. It's about being from a completely different social environment and not wanting to fuck up because you're the first person in your family who might break out of the minimum wage chain. That's the stuff I care about optimizing for.
  - davemel37 10y ago
    Honestly, that boils down to how you frame and perceive (and teach)risk more than anything else. If they perceive stability in a $100k job and perceive startups as risking that opportunity, they will be afraid...it has nothing to do with where they came from. Edit: Also, if you really think about it...those kids are already breaking the rules by learning to code and not accepting their upbringing as determining their fate. They are breaking all sorts of cultural rules.
    - GuiA 10y ago
      When you're the first in your family to go to college, and that for your entire life your reality was mom and older brother working multiple jobs to feed 3 generations under the same roof and yet you still went hungry at the end of the month and regularly got the power cut, well yes you don't perceive taking risks the same way as Paul Graham does. If you want to come to our workshops and talk to these young adults about how to frame and perceive risk, please do get in touch.
      - davemel37 10y ago
CamperBob2 10y ago
I don't think I want to live in your world, or at least not in your Valley.
ap3 10y ago
>hard working kid from immigrant parents Probably had to break a lot of rules to fit in/find their place in a new society

by GuiA 10y ago

davemel37 10y ago

I think you are making some pretty broad assumptions about a whole bunch of things. First, this very article is about an immigrant, with no status, money or connections, creating opportunity for himself. Obviously, I am gonna be somewhat biased by my own upbringing, so I can't be truly objective (other than knowing that I grew up in a vastly different upbringing that the folks you describe, yet still feel there are some rules that should be broken and others that shouldn't be crossed. My only two points I would make are: 1. YC Funds a pretty diverse crowd from all over the world if I understand correctly (I have no direct knowledge.) 2. Founding a successful startup isn't for everyone, and maybe it favors some over others due to life circumstances, but that doesn't change the reality that to innovate and succeed, you might need that "naughty" mentality, regardless of whether it came from a place of privilege or not. Finally, In my experience, persistence is by far a more important trait for success than almost anything else, and the most driven, focused, persistent people are often the ones that fought against all odds to break free from their underprivileged circumstances, much like the immigrant you described. I am not sure they feel a need to play by arbitrary rules or not, but even if they do, they often rise above through sheer force of will...and often that persistence, and will power brings them to do things that open doors by ignoring propriety and breaking down barriers and limitations that live in their head more than anywhere else. I might be biased about all sorts of privilege and might be blind to the class bias you refer to, I do not know...but my gut and experience tell me that individuals and their personal decisions matter much more than their class and circumstances. (Not discounting those other factors, just discounting the role they actually play in reality relative their own choices and of course colored by my own bias.)

GuiA 10y ago
I've worked with thousands of teenagers from underserved/underprivileged communities at this point, in 3 different countries, teaching them how to code, but also interview and fit in within larger tech companies. When they are exposed to an environment they have never been in before - for example the tech industry/startup world - many of them are overwhelmed, confused, and feel like they have to tread very carefully because they don't want to lose the opportunity to make $100k a year as an engineer when the other option is retail/service jobs. In those cases, they do their best to follow the rules and be on their best behavior, and are not going to take any risks of being naughty. This is not at odds with being driven, focused, persistent etc. It's about being from a completely different social environment and not wanting to fuck up because you're the first person in your family who might break out of the minimum wage chain. That's the stuff I care about optimizing for.
- davemel37 10y ago
  Honestly, that boils down to how you frame and perceive (and teach)risk more than anything else. If they perceive stability in a $100k job and perceive startups as risking that opportunity, they will be afraid...it has nothing to do with where they came from. Edit: Also, if you really think about it...those kids are already breaking the rules by learning to code and not accepting their upbringing as determining their fate. They are breaking all sorts of cultural rules.
  - GuiA 10y ago
    When you're the first in your family to go to college, and that for your entire life your reality was mom and older brother working multiple jobs to feed 3 generations under the same roof and yet you still went hungry at the end of the month and regularly got the power cut, well yes you don't perceive taking risks the same way as Paul Graham does. If you want to come to our workshops and talk to these young adults about how to frame and perceive risk, please do get in touch.
    - davemel37 10y ago

CamperBob2 10y ago

I don't think I want to live in your world, or at least not in your Valley.

ap3 10y ago

>hard working kid from immigrant parents Probably had to break a lot of rules to fit in/find their place in a new society