4 ms·

> That's for armies, though. ... Is some culture unique in its lack of fear of death outside of battle? At least staying with my example, there's an explicit "

by acqq 10y ago

> That's for armies, though. ... Is some culture unique in its lack of fear of death outside of battle? At least staying with my example, there's an explicit "duty" for the "jihad" (which can also be translated as the "battle" http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/struggle http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/struggle and which is exactly so understood by the majority of scholars) to be performed by every believer: https://www.al-islam.org/a-muslim-in-society-al-balagh/jihad-holy-struggle-obligatory-duty https://www.al-islam.org/a-muslim-in-society-al-balagh/jihad... "a holy duty made obligatory upon all Muslims by Allah" "Allah made jihad obligatory, in all its forms"

HarryHirsch 10y ago
The Christian tradition knows the concept of ecclesia militans. Whatever the battle metaphor means depends on the believer and their tradition. It's not helpful to single out Islam as particularly militant, indeed Mohammed originally considered himself a reformer instead of the founder of a new religion. Muslim concepts tend to have a Christian counterpart.
- acqq 10y ago
  > Mohammed originally considered himself a reformer And Jesus didn't consider himself starting a new faith ("Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.") Irrelevant. > It's not helpful to single out Islam as particularly militant Have you actually read the original texts, the Bible and the Quran and Hadith (as these two are the equivalent of the Bible), to compare? I think the huge difference is more than obvious to anybody who does. That is, that whoever actually reads can't deny it. E.g. ten commandments versus 75 commandments only about sharing the loot (including the female slaves): http://www.clearquran.com/008.html http://www.clearquran.com/008.html Or 10 commandments versus 164 jihad verses: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.h... Or simply compare: the Christian martyrs are those who were thrown to the lions. The other martyrs are those "who are killed while killing the unbelievers." The idea of heaven with 72 virgins always ready for sex with the died fighters is also quite non-comparable, but explains the motivation for wishing the death. Edit Or can you quote something testosterone inducing in fighting for Christian God or being in heaven? This is from the real site ("a project of the non-profit Islamic Supreme Council of America organization devoted to providing educating the public regarding Islam, Muslims, Islamic belief and law, and Islamic spirituality (tasawwuf)"): "Arousal and verses about the houris" http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/arousal-and-verses-about-the-houris/ http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/arousal-and-verses-about-the-... /Edit We are really lucky for all the people who don't take the religious texts seriously.
  - vacri 10y ago
    > The idea of heaven with 72 virgins always ready for sex with the died fighters is also quite non-comparable, but explains the motivation for wishing the death. It's there in christianity as well, it's just not so explicit - if you die for a christian goal, you'll get into heaven, same as their muslim counterparts, and heaven is an awesome place that you really want to be.
  - HarryHirsch 10y ago
    Can we have proper sourcing on this website please? Some decent Islamic theology if you discuss Islam, not random stuff written by people with uncertain reputation? No one would quote such stuff in their degree thesis, it would make their university look funny.
  - notahacker 10y ago
    It's pretty difficult to make an intellectually honest comparison between the levels of violence in the Quran and the Bible if the Ten Commandments is the only part of the Old Testament you're willing to acknowledge exists. It's not like the Old Testament doesn't also have long lists of innocuous things for which one can be put to death, clarifications on the level of beating that one is permitted to give ones' slave, and divinely-sanctioned combat and divinely sanctioned mass killing of civilians. As with the Quran, there's a lot of scope for scholars and leaders to determine which passages they believe are most applicable to the present situation.
    - acqq 10y ago
      Can you point me to any actual Fiqh which presents the possibility of choice of "which passages to believe" in Islamic scholarship? I'm really not aware of it, only the opposite, and for that there's enough quotes in any Fiqh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh Jihad as the actual physical fight is also a part of every fiqh. Excluding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya that are around 1% of all believers and actually not accepted by the rest.
      - 10y ago
ameen 10y ago
Jihad isn't obligatory, that's a perversion of the verse. The only obligations are the 5 pillars of Islam - Belief in the Oneness of God, Salah (Prayer), Hajj (Ritual Pilgrimage), Charity and Fasting during the month of Ramadan. Also, Jihad doesn't refer to a violent battle. Jihad means struggle, struggle to follow their faith. Violence is only the last step and often only in self-preservation. Even then there are rules of engagement and not a barbaric manner as depicted. Struggle for self-preservation to follow Islam is no longer applicable IMO. The West doesn't limit their citizens or visitors from following their faith. Freedom of religion is a fundamental right, and as such no Muslim can claim to be fighting for their religion when killing Innocents which is one of the biggest sins.
- mamon 10y ago
  Jihad was invented by Muhammad who was political and military leader in need of big army to enable his conquest of Arabia. So when Muhammad spoke about Jihad he meant it quite literaly: kill the infidels. That "spiritual struggle" interpretation was invented later, by some imams, who turned out to be better, more peaceful and compassionate human beings than the prophet himself.

by acqq 10y ago

HarryHirsch 10y ago

The Christian tradition knows the concept of ecclesia militans. Whatever the battle metaphor means depends on the believer and their tradition. It's not helpful to single out Islam as particularly militant, indeed Mohammed originally considered himself a reformer instead of the founder of a new religion. Muslim concepts tend to have a Christian counterpart.

acqq 10y ago
> Mohammed originally considered himself a reformer And Jesus didn't consider himself starting a new faith ("Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.") Irrelevant. > It's not helpful to single out Islam as particularly militant Have you actually read the original texts, the Bible and the Quran and Hadith (as these two are the equivalent of the Bible), to compare? I think the huge difference is more than obvious to anybody who does. That is, that whoever actually reads can't deny it. E.g. ten commandments versus 75 commandments only about sharing the loot (including the female slaves): http://www.clearquran.com/008.html http://www.clearquran.com/008.html Or 10 commandments versus 164 jihad verses: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.h... Or simply compare: the Christian martyrs are those who were thrown to the lions. The other martyrs are those "who are killed while killing the unbelievers." The idea of heaven with 72 virgins always ready for sex with the died fighters is also quite non-comparable, but explains the motivation for wishing the death. Edit Or can you quote something testosterone inducing in fighting for Christian God or being in heaven? This is from the real site ("a project of the non-profit Islamic Supreme Council of America organization devoted to providing educating the public regarding Islam, Muslims, Islamic belief and law, and Islamic spirituality (tasawwuf)"): "Arousal and verses about the houris" http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/arousal-and-verses-about-the-houris/ http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/arousal-and-verses-about-the-... /Edit We are really lucky for all the people who don't take the religious texts seriously.
- vacri 10y ago
  > The idea of heaven with 72 virgins always ready for sex with the died fighters is also quite non-comparable, but explains the motivation for wishing the death. It's there in christianity as well, it's just not so explicit - if you die for a christian goal, you'll get into heaven, same as their muslim counterparts, and heaven is an awesome place that you really want to be.
- HarryHirsch 10y ago
  Can we have proper sourcing on this website please? Some decent Islamic theology if you discuss Islam, not random stuff written by people with uncertain reputation? No one would quote such stuff in their degree thesis, it would make their university look funny.
- notahacker 10y ago
  It's pretty difficult to make an intellectually honest comparison between the levels of violence in the Quran and the Bible if the Ten Commandments is the only part of the Old Testament you're willing to acknowledge exists. It's not like the Old Testament doesn't also have long lists of innocuous things for which one can be put to death, clarifications on the level of beating that one is permitted to give ones' slave, and divinely-sanctioned combat and divinely sanctioned mass killing of civilians. As with the Quran, there's a lot of scope for scholars and leaders to determine which passages they believe are most applicable to the present situation.
  - acqq 10y ago
    Can you point me to any actual Fiqh which presents the possibility of choice of "which passages to believe" in Islamic scholarship? I'm really not aware of it, only the opposite, and for that there's enough quotes in any Fiqh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh Jihad as the actual physical fight is also a part of every fiqh. Excluding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya that are around 1% of all believers and actually not accepted by the rest.
    - 10y ago

ameen 10y ago

Jihad isn't obligatory, that's a perversion of the verse. The only obligations are the 5 pillars of Islam - Belief in the Oneness of God, Salah (Prayer), Hajj (Ritual Pilgrimage), Charity and Fasting during the month of Ramadan. Also, Jihad doesn't refer to a violent battle. Jihad means struggle, struggle to follow their faith. Violence is only the last step and often only in self-preservation. Even then there are rules of engagement and not a barbaric manner as depicted. Struggle for self-preservation to follow Islam is no longer applicable IMO. The West doesn't limit their citizens or visitors from following their faith. Freedom of religion is a fundamental right, and as such no Muslim can claim to be fighting for their religion when killing Innocents which is one of the biggest sins.

mamon 10y ago
Jihad was invented by Muhammad who was political and military leader in need of big army to enable his conquest of Arabia. So when Muhammad spoke about Jihad he meant it quite literaly: kill the infidels. That "spiritual struggle" interpretation was invented later, by some imams, who turned out to be better, more peaceful and compassionate human beings than the prophet himself.