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But the tools are real! Just very primitive. I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't give you a toolkit with a bunch of weird tools and impractical designs

But the tools are real! Just very primitive. I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't give you a toolkit with a bunch of weird tools and impractical designs and bizzare edge cases (looking at you, INTERCAL), it's purely, "right, here's your tools, you knoe how they work, let's see you pull this off." Sure, it's less obviously linked to programming, but think about it: that sort of issue comes up all the time. And just because the goal is more overtly computational in nature doesn't mean it's actually a more computational game: I wouldn't know, because it's 9 o'clock here on USEast, and I'm typing this on my phone, so I can't play the game ATM.

thaumasiotes 10y ago
> But the tools are real! Just very primitive. If you're scheduling cargo shipments, it strikes me as both easier and more "primitive" to have one tool that can load, move, and unload cargo in response to commands, and an entirely different programmable tool that issues the commands.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  Is that how MFT works? Well then good.
  - thaumasiotes 10y ago
    In Manufactoria, your bitstring exists in an abstract space. Your program is still written in Befunge, and so the execution cursor must physically travel around a 2D grid, but instructions affecting the bitstring just happen -- there are no requirements for you to have positioned the various bits within the grid. So yes, the Befunge cursor in MFT is the command-issuing tool, and you could view the bitstring as being acted on by a separate color-blob-manipulating tool. In Spacechem, the command "pick up object" will only work if the logic cursor, which doubles as the robot, is currently over an object. In MFT, the command "rotate right" acts on your ineffable bitstring no matter where the logic cursor happens to be.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      That's probably a result of Spacechem's history: The Codex of Alchemical Engineering, the game which would become Spacechem, and to an extent Spacechem itself, focus on programming things to move physical objects. On a related note, thank you, Zach, for only having two mechanisms, using more visual programming, and adding a sync instruction. Until you play CAE, you cannot possibly know how good you've got it.

thaumasiotes 10y ago

> But the tools are real! Just very primitive. If you're scheduling cargo shipments, it strikes me as both easier and more "primitive" to have one tool that can load, move, and unload cargo in response to commands, and an entirely different programmable tool that issues the commands.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Is that how MFT works? Well then good.
- thaumasiotes 10y ago
  In Manufactoria, your bitstring exists in an abstract space. Your program is still written in Befunge, and so the execution cursor must physically travel around a 2D grid, but instructions affecting the bitstring just happen -- there are no requirements for you to have positioned the various bits within the grid. So yes, the Befunge cursor in MFT is the command-issuing tool, and you could view the bitstring as being acted on by a separate color-blob-manipulating tool. In Spacechem, the command "pick up object" will only work if the logic cursor, which doubles as the robot, is currently over an object. In MFT, the command "rotate right" acts on your ineffable bitstring no matter where the logic cursor happens to be.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    That's probably a result of Spacechem's history: The Codex of Alchemical Engineering, the game which would become Spacechem, and to an extent Spacechem itself, focus on programming things to move physical objects. On a related note, thank you, Zach, for only having two mechanisms, using more visual programming, and adding a sync instruction. Until you play CAE, you cannot possibly know how good you've got it.