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>I would go on and talk about what I think 4chan really stands for, but I assume most people on HN are pretty familiar with the site, so just know that I am in

>I would go on and talk about what I think 4chan really stands for, but I assume most people on HN are pretty familiar with the site, so just know that I am in the camp that likes how it is (or used to be?) a last bastion of freedom and anonymity (not Tor-like, but where the UX is designed to not have profiles and usernames) and free discourse on the internet. Well, noisy discourse, shitposting, and doubles threads. Actually, not really discourse at all. Mostly just heresy.

tarancato 10y ago
There are boards and boards. And even in the worst boards there are good threads. It's a culture of its own, though.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  Yes, I know. I just also don't really have any illusions that the "4chanish" population have any right to a subsidized forum for, well, being 4chanish. Deep down, it's a business run for profit by a private individual, not a piece of public property maintained with tax money.
SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
Yeah, but have you considered that there's a developmental benefit to having somewhere you can go and just say "vile" things? I know having that kind of space online as I was coming-of-age was huge for me, it gave me somewhere to experiment with opinions without consequences. Somewhere to say truly, truly disgusting things. And I did, a lot. But over time, it became clear where I was just being offensive and experimenting with "naughty" ideas, where I was trolling, and where I genuinely disagreed with the norm. That free experimentation with opinions and language is a lot harder to find these days, but it really shaped and honed my ability to even form arguments, my ability to explain my position to people who don't agree with me, and my ability to listen to positions I find offensive. Not all discourse needs be Discourse, full of profundity and consequence; experimentation, freedom, and privacy are core to the human developmental and creative processes.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  > Yeah, but have you considered that there's a developmental benefit to having somewhere you can go and just say "vile" things? Well yes, but the question is, do you value that developmental benefit enough to pay for it? The real problem here isn't "freedom", it's business: how can 4chan pay for itself?
- labster 10y ago
  The problem is that some people never got the memo that says that chanspeak is not acceptable in polite conversation. So the chans end up being a continual generator of sexist, racist assholes who think that it's OK to be sexist, racist assholes. Lots (but not all) gamergaters fall into this basket of deplorables. Which is not to say that your comment is not valid. Society needs a release valve where people can feel free to vent their creativity along with the darkness in their souls. Imageboards are really great for that, as the ephemeral anonymous nature lets the good ideas survive and the bad ideas fade forever into the aether. Without the fear of consequences or prejudice, the human spirit is unbound to create stuff. Naturally, 90% of everything created is crap. It's just a terrible place to learn socialization. And a few too many do that.
  - SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
    > The problem is that some people never got the memo that says that chanspeak is not acceptable in polite conversation. So the chans end up being a continual generator of sexist, racist assholes who think that it's OK to be sexist, racist assholes. Lots (but not all) gamergaters fall into this basket of deplorables. What you revile here with such colorful language is nothing but many developmentally delayed people you likely bully in real life (and certainly, if not you, others do) for not learning social graces and conforming to society at the rate you do forming a community and insisting that they be treated with rather than oppressed by society at large, or they'll tear the place down. You don't like it, because you were on the oppressing side, and oppressing them is easier than dealing with their very real underlying issues and trying to meaningfully integrate them in to society. So your suggestion is to eliminate a community that plays a healthy role for normally developing people and a meeting ground for them, presumably in hopes that they'll go back to quietly being oppressed. > It's just a terrible place to learn socialization. And a few too many do that. Frankly, I doubt you offered them a better alternative.

tarancato 10y ago

There are boards and boards. And even in the worst boards there are good threads. It's a culture of its own, though.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
Yes, I know. I just also don't really have any illusions that the "4chanish" population have any right to a subsidized forum for, well, being 4chanish. Deep down, it's a business run for profit by a private individual, not a piece of public property maintained with tax money.

SomeStupidPoint 10y ago

Yeah, but have you considered that there's a developmental benefit to having somewhere you can go and just say "vile" things? I know having that kind of space online as I was coming-of-age was huge for me, it gave me somewhere to experiment with opinions without consequences. Somewhere to say truly, truly disgusting things. And I did, a lot. But over time, it became clear where I was just being offensive and experimenting with "naughty" ideas, where I was trolling, and where I genuinely disagreed with the norm. That free experimentation with opinions and language is a lot harder to find these days, but it really shaped and honed my ability to even form arguments, my ability to explain my position to people who don't agree with me, and my ability to listen to positions I find offensive. Not all discourse needs be Discourse, full of profundity and consequence; experimentation, freedom, and privacy are core to the human developmental and creative processes.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
> Yeah, but have you considered that there's a developmental benefit to having somewhere you can go and just say "vile" things? Well yes, but the question is, do you value that developmental benefit enough to pay for it? The real problem here isn't "freedom", it's business: how can 4chan pay for itself?
labster 10y ago
The problem is that some people never got the memo that says that chanspeak is not acceptable in polite conversation. So the chans end up being a continual generator of sexist, racist assholes who think that it's OK to be sexist, racist assholes. Lots (but not all) gamergaters fall into this basket of deplorables. Which is not to say that your comment is not valid. Society needs a release valve where people can feel free to vent their creativity along with the darkness in their souls. Imageboards are really great for that, as the ephemeral anonymous nature lets the good ideas survive and the bad ideas fade forever into the aether. Without the fear of consequences or prejudice, the human spirit is unbound to create stuff. Naturally, 90% of everything created is crap. It's just a terrible place to learn socialization. And a few too many do that.
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  > The problem is that some people never got the memo that says that chanspeak is not acceptable in polite conversation. So the chans end up being a continual generator of sexist, racist assholes who think that it's OK to be sexist, racist assholes. Lots (but not all) gamergaters fall into this basket of deplorables. What you revile here with such colorful language is nothing but many developmentally delayed people you likely bully in real life (and certainly, if not you, others do) for not learning social graces and conforming to society at the rate you do forming a community and insisting that they be treated with rather than oppressed by society at large, or they'll tear the place down. You don't like it, because you were on the oppressing side, and oppressing them is easier than dealing with their very real underlying issues and trying to meaningfully integrate them in to society. So your suggestion is to eliminate a community that plays a healthy role for normally developing people and a meeting ground for them, presumably in hopes that they'll go back to quietly being oppressed. > It's just a terrible place to learn socialization. And a few too many do that. Frankly, I doubt you offered them a better alternative.