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I also have this "off" feeling, but I have at least one specific example: http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-than-you-love-life http://n

by acqq 10y ago

I also have this "off" feeling, but I have at least one specific example: http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-than-you-love-life http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-th... "These grisly words are as foreign to Western sensibilities as they are all but sacred dogma for Muslim radicals at war with the West—and with Western sensibilities. The sentence originated with a 7th-century Muslim commander who threatened his enemies with the prospect of “an army of men that love death as you love life.” As if to prove that, at least in the Middle East, there is nothing new under the sun, Hassan Nasrallah employed the phrase in a 2004 interview to explain why Hizballah, the organization he heads, is destined to prevail over Israel" "How to understand this macabre sentiment? Martyrdom has played an important role in Islam since its inception, and a number of chapters in the Quran mention the rewards of those who fight and die for God."

geofft 10y ago
That's for armies, though. The West is the culture that produced "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country" and "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori," both in the context of war. And there have been many, many religious martyrs in the history of Western civilization, and lots of veneration of those martyrs, mostly in the context of battle. Not just in Christianity - the Eddas say that all who die in battle will be guaranteed a place in Valhalla (or either Valhalla or Folkvangr, depending on the source). I think the interesting distinction here is that my examples and yours are all related to battle, and the context here isn't about battle. Is some culture unique in its lack of fear of death outside of battle?
- acqq 10y ago
  > That's for armies, though. ... Is some culture unique in its lack of fear of death outside of battle? At least staying with my example, there's an explicit "duty" for the "jihad" (which can also be translated as the "battle" http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/struggle http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/struggle and which is exactly so understood by the majority of scholars) to be performed by every believer: https://www.al-islam.org/a-muslim-in-society-al-balagh/jihad-holy-struggle-obligatory-duty https://www.al-islam.org/a-muslim-in-society-al-balagh/jihad... "a holy duty made obligatory upon all Muslims by Allah" "Allah made jihad obligatory, in all its forms"
  - HarryHirsch 10y ago
    The Christian tradition knows the concept of ecclesia militans. Whatever the battle metaphor means depends on the believer and their tradition. It's not helpful to single out Islam as particularly militant, indeed Mohammed originally considered himself a reformer instead of the founder of a new religion. Muslim concepts tend to have a Christian counterpart.
    - acqq 10y ago
      > Mohammed originally considered himself a reformer And Jesus didn't consider himself starting a new faith ("Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.") Irrelevant. > It's not helpful to single out Islam as particularly militant Have you actually read the original texts, the Bible and the Quran and Hadith (as these two are the equivalent of the Bible), to compare? I think the huge difference is more than obvious to anybody who does. That is, that whoever actually reads can't deny it. E.g. ten commandments versus 75 commandments only about sharing the loot (including the female slaves): http://www.clearquran.com/008.html http://www.clearquran.com/008.html Or 10 commandments versus 164 jihad verses: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.h... Or simply compare: the Christian martyrs are those who were thrown to the lions. The other martyrs are those "who are killed while killing the unbelievers." The idea of heaven with 72 virgins always ready for sex with the died fighters is also quite non-comparable, but explains the motivation for wishing the death. Edit Or can you quote something testosterone inducing in fighting for Christian God or being in heaven? This is from the real site ("a project of the non-profit Islamic Supreme Council of America organization devoted to providing educating the public regarding Islam, Muslims, Islamic belief and law, and Islamic spirituality (tasawwuf)"): "Arousal and verses about the houris" http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/arousal-and-verses-about-the-houris/ http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/arousal-and-verses-about-the-... /Edit We are really lucky for all the people who don't take the religious texts seriously.
      - vacri 10y ago
        > The idea of heaven with 72 virgins always ready for sex with the died fighters is also quite non-comparable, but explains the motivation for wishing the death. It's there in christianity as well, it's just not so explicit - if you die for a christian goal, you'll get into heaven, same as their muslim counterparts, and heaven is an awesome place that you really want to be.
- ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
  A lot of Christian martyrs were martyred outside of battle. Like, the entire first 300 or so years of Christianity, for starters. Also Christians living under Muslim rule.

by acqq 10y ago

geofft 10y ago

That's for armies, though. The West is the culture that produced "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country" and "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori," both in the context of war. And there have been many, many religious martyrs in the history of Western civilization, and lots of veneration of those martyrs, mostly in the context of battle. Not just in Christianity - the Eddas say that all who die in battle will be guaranteed a place in Valhalla (or either Valhalla or Folkvangr, depending on the source). I think the interesting distinction here is that my examples and yours are all related to battle, and the context here isn't about battle. Is some culture unique in its lack of fear of death outside of battle?

acqq 10y ago
> That's for armies, though. ... Is some culture unique in its lack of fear of death outside of battle? At least staying with my example, there's an explicit "duty" for the "jihad" (which can also be translated as the "battle" http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/struggle http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/struggle and which is exactly so understood by the majority of scholars) to be performed by every believer: https://www.al-islam.org/a-muslim-in-society-al-balagh/jihad-holy-struggle-obligatory-duty https://www.al-islam.org/a-muslim-in-society-al-balagh/jihad... "a holy duty made obligatory upon all Muslims by Allah" "Allah made jihad obligatory, in all its forms"
- HarryHirsch 10y ago
  The Christian tradition knows the concept of ecclesia militans. Whatever the battle metaphor means depends on the believer and their tradition. It's not helpful to single out Islam as particularly militant, indeed Mohammed originally considered himself a reformer instead of the founder of a new religion. Muslim concepts tend to have a Christian counterpart.
  - acqq 10y ago
    > Mohammed originally considered himself a reformer And Jesus didn't consider himself starting a new faith ("Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.") Irrelevant. > It's not helpful to single out Islam as particularly militant Have you actually read the original texts, the Bible and the Quran and Hadith (as these two are the equivalent of the Bible), to compare? I think the huge difference is more than obvious to anybody who does. That is, that whoever actually reads can't deny it. E.g. ten commandments versus 75 commandments only about sharing the loot (including the female slaves): http://www.clearquran.com/008.html http://www.clearquran.com/008.html Or 10 commandments versus 164 jihad verses: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.h... Or simply compare: the Christian martyrs are those who were thrown to the lions. The other martyrs are those "who are killed while killing the unbelievers." The idea of heaven with 72 virgins always ready for sex with the died fighters is also quite non-comparable, but explains the motivation for wishing the death. Edit Or can you quote something testosterone inducing in fighting for Christian God or being in heaven? This is from the real site ("a project of the non-profit Islamic Supreme Council of America organization devoted to providing educating the public regarding Islam, Muslims, Islamic belief and law, and Islamic spirituality (tasawwuf)"): "Arousal and verses about the houris" http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/arousal-and-verses-about-the-houris/ http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/arousal-and-verses-about-the-... /Edit We are really lucky for all the people who don't take the religious texts seriously.
    - vacri 10y ago
      > The idea of heaven with 72 virgins always ready for sex with the died fighters is also quite non-comparable, but explains the motivation for wishing the death. It's there in christianity as well, it's just not so explicit - if you die for a christian goal, you'll get into heaven, same as their muslim counterparts, and heaven is an awesome place that you really want to be.
ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
A lot of Christian martyrs were martyred outside of battle. Like, the entire first 300 or so years of Christianity, for starters. Also Christians living under Muslim rule.