4 ms·

> I'm not sure you can make a good case that regulation opposed to the interests of AirBnB/Uber/etc. is a bad thing for the economy from the point of view of th

> I'm not sure you can make a good case that regulation opposed to the interests of AirBnB/Uber/etc. is a bad thing for the economy from the point of view of the workers. Sure you can. If I'm a part-time Uber driver, forcing me to be classified as an employee might very well remove a side income stream from me. It's even more farcical for AirBnB: people renting out their spare bedroom would not otherwise be working in hotels. > From that angle, it's zero-sum: the more people who use AirBnB, the fewer stay in hotels Actually, I'm not sure this is true. If AirBnB reduces the cost of temporary accommodation, you might very well see increased travel overall without hurting hotels. In fact, I strongly believe this is true: look at things like the digital nomad movement, which heavily uses AirBnB and would be much less common without modern technology. Right now I'm staying in an AirBnB—if this option weren't available, I wouldn't have stayed in a hotel.

shostack 10y ago
And if you're a full time driver and desperately need healthcare, etc. This prevents you from getting it through Uber. I don't think the matter is so black and white.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Unless the you're one of the 80% of drivers having another job not because you want one, but because being a driver doesn't pay enough. Part time work is allowed, why would reclassification take away the other income stream? Or if you're one of the many delivery drivers who are only self-employed because the organisation insists. It gives the organisation a means to evade employee regulations and pay despite a 40 hour week, but nothing to the worker.
- pitaj 10y ago
  Because the cost to Uber of reclassifying these contractors as employees would end their business.
fpoling 10y ago
The observation about AirBNB that it increases possibilities for travelling without hurting hotels significantly is spot on. Personally I know students who would not go to some conferences without AirBNB. Staying in a hotel is just above their travel allowance. Less anecdotal is reports from hotel industry in Norway about record levels of occupancy despite growth in AirBNB and similar services.
jomamaxx 10y ago
Yeah, neither Uber nor AirBnB area a zero sum game, esp. ABnB. There is some 'growing the pie' at the margins, but I'd suggest that Uber Corp. grabs more than what is created, and that drivers et. al. are holding the losing end of the stick. The power imbalance between Uber Corp. and drivers is quite massive. Esp. without employment status. Uber is designed to suck every last penny of real margin out of the system, and leave drivers with the absolute minimum. Worse: because many drivers make short term decisions about their costs, and don't calculate wear and tear into their decisions, it's probably that Uber driving is borderline unprofitable. Imagine if there was one factory in the world where you could work. You got $10 an hour - just enough to stay alive. But - you are going to get sick and die in 10 years from the toxicity. Well, the real 'market price' for such dangerous work might be $20/hour - enough to pay for health insurance and medicine, but because of short term decisions made by workers who are desperate - it's $10/hour i.e. a 'long term money losing venture' to work in the factory. I generally like Uber as a concept, but we can't ignore these issues.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Remember that Uber replaced a model (taxis) wherein drivers not only where also independent contractors, as they had to pay at the start of each day to rent a medallion, not knowing if they would earn enough to compensate. Uber's model seems strictly better than what has existed for decades.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    You're missing the most important difference: Taxi market is regulated, and numbers are controlled. This keeps some degree of profits backed into the market. The other difference is that taxi drivers have generally stable work. A guy can drive a cab consistently for years. The pay is not good, but the economics have to work out. Cab companies and owners have enough wherewithal to make long term decisions, moreover, the 'drivers' - the ones on the end of the chain - if they are not owners - are not responsible for the fixed costs of the cars etc.. Finally, cab companies are by nature, small - and don't have hyper-leverage over drivers. Cab companies have to compete efficiently for talent among their drivers. If you can call it talent. Uber is a hyper-capitalists dream - you take 105% of the surplus from a market.
nedwin 10y ago
How big is the "digital nomad movement"? And how do you differentiate a digital nomad from a backpacker or a professional on a sabbatical?
nedwin 10y ago
How big is the "digital nomad movement"? And how do you differentiate a digital nomad from a backpacker or a professional on a sabbatical?

shostack 10y ago

And if you're a full time driver and desperately need healthcare, etc. This prevents you from getting it through Uber. I don't think the matter is so black and white.

anexprogrammer 10y ago

Unless the you're one of the 80% of drivers having another job not because you want one, but because being a driver doesn't pay enough. Part time work is allowed, why would reclassification take away the other income stream? Or if you're one of the many delivery drivers who are only self-employed because the organisation insists. It gives the organisation a means to evade employee regulations and pay despite a 40 hour week, but nothing to the worker.

pitaj 10y ago
Because the cost to Uber of reclassifying these contractors as employees would end their business.

fpoling 10y ago

The observation about AirBNB that it increases possibilities for travelling without hurting hotels significantly is spot on. Personally I know students who would not go to some conferences without AirBNB. Staying in a hotel is just above their travel allowance. Less anecdotal is reports from hotel industry in Norway about record levels of occupancy despite growth in AirBNB and similar services.

jomamaxx 10y ago

Yeah, neither Uber nor AirBnB area a zero sum game, esp. ABnB. There is some 'growing the pie' at the margins, but I'd suggest that Uber Corp. grabs more than what is created, and that drivers et. al. are holding the losing end of the stick. The power imbalance between Uber Corp. and drivers is quite massive. Esp. without employment status. Uber is designed to suck every last penny of real margin out of the system, and leave drivers with the absolute minimum. Worse: because many drivers make short term decisions about their costs, and don't calculate wear and tear into their decisions, it's probably that Uber driving is borderline unprofitable. Imagine if there was one factory in the world where you could work. You got $10 an hour - just enough to stay alive. But - you are going to get sick and die in 10 years from the toxicity. Well, the real 'market price' for such dangerous work might be $20/hour - enough to pay for health insurance and medicine, but because of short term decisions made by workers who are desperate - it's $10/hour i.e. a 'long term money losing venture' to work in the factory. I generally like Uber as a concept, but we can't ignore these issues.

icebraining 10y ago
Remember that Uber replaced a model (taxis) wherein drivers not only where also independent contractors, as they had to pay at the start of each day to rent a medallion, not knowing if they would earn enough to compensate. Uber's model seems strictly better than what has existed for decades.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  You're missing the most important difference: Taxi market is regulated, and numbers are controlled. This keeps some degree of profits backed into the market. The other difference is that taxi drivers have generally stable work. A guy can drive a cab consistently for years. The pay is not good, but the economics have to work out. Cab companies and owners have enough wherewithal to make long term decisions, moreover, the 'drivers' - the ones on the end of the chain - if they are not owners - are not responsible for the fixed costs of the cars etc.. Finally, cab companies are by nature, small - and don't have hyper-leverage over drivers. Cab companies have to compete efficiently for talent among their drivers. If you can call it talent. Uber is a hyper-capitalists dream - you take 105% of the surplus from a market.

nedwin 10y ago

How big is the "digital nomad movement"? And how do you differentiate a digital nomad from a backpacker or a professional on a sabbatical?

nedwin 10y ago

How big is the "digital nomad movement"? And how do you differentiate a digital nomad from a backpacker or a professional on a sabbatical?