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> And worst of all, extraneous lawsuits targeting companies attempting to share helpful information with workers regarding taxes, insurance, and retirement acco

by sedachv 10y ago

> And worst of all, extraneous lawsuits targeting companies attempting to share helpful information with workers regarding taxes, insurance, and retirement accounts, are punishing the very individuals these groups falsely espouse. David Loeper's book has a few citations of surveys about how "helpful" the information about 401k plans actually is: https://www.amazon.com/Stop-401-Rip-Off-Eliminate-Improve/dp/1934454079 https://www.amazon.com/Stop-401-Rip-Off-Eliminate-Improve/dp... tl;dr - 401k plans are a Reagan-era privatization scam; almost no one understands what to choose, which makes it easier for plan management companies and funds to charge ridiculous fees. David Belk lectures on medical insurance plans (https://www.youtube.com/user/davidbelk46/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/davidbelk46/videos I recommend starting at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkAY15p2DN4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkAY15p2DN4). Same deal - deductible, copays, caps, lifetime caps, what to choose? A lot of these plan details deliberately obfuscate the fact that you would spend less paying for medication and procedures directly than the insurance co-pay! This article is privatization scam propaganda disguised in free-market jargon. Not surprising when you consider the author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Schweikert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Schweikert

NotSammyHagar 10y ago
I think you are completely wrong about medical insurance being cheaper to pay out of pocket than get the insurance. Perhaps this is true for some horrible 100$/month insurance. But my bills all come with: list price, plan discount (usually 30-60% off), next what the ins comp. covers = usually 80% of discounted price, then what I pay, that is a small amount, 20% * 60% * original price. I recently had a drug that wasn't covered by my insurance, they wanted me to use the generic. The non-generic was $288/month out of pocket, the generic cost nothing after the insurance paid their part. on 401ks, i think you might have more of an argument about costs, but since we don't have an alternative, it would lead to many people having no retirement. there's no law that makes people use 401ks instead of private retirement.
- jknskjndf 10y ago
  On the whole medical insurance is more expensive than paying out of pocket, otherwise the insurance companies would be losing money and wouldn't exist.
  - fpoling 10y ago
    Long-term insurance business is losing money. It only exists as small insurance companies can re-insure with bigger ones and the biggest get state support. Also consider that paying out of pocket has transactionall cost and it could be that on average it is cheaper to pay through insurance company.
  - endswapper 10y ago
    That's not true. "Float, or available reserve, is the amount of money on hand at any given moment that an insurer has collected in insurance premiums but has not paid out in claims. Insurers start investing insurance premiums as soon as they are collected and continue to earn interest or other income on them until claims are paid out." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance Additionally, Warren Buffet discusses this in fascinating detail over the course of almost 40 years. http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html
    - jknskjndf 10y ago
      Nothing you said makes my statement untrue.
      - endswapper 10y ago
        Pardon if I misunderstood, or misinterpreted your post, but you seemed to be saying that premiums must be more than the claims or they wouldn't/couldn't be in business. That is not true. Even if an insurance company has claims greater than its premiums it could exist, and even be profitable, because of its ability to earn additional revenue through investing its float. You seemed to omit this consideration, which is significant because investment returns on billions of dollars can be significant.
- sedachv 10y ago
  > list price, plan discount (usually 30-60% off), next what the ins comp. covers = usually 80% of discounted price, then what I pay, that is a small amount, 20% * 60% * original price. I recently had a drug that wasn't covered by my insurance, they wanted me to use the generic. Can you please read/watch linked sources before commenting? The videos go into detail about "plan discounts." tl;dr - it is basically the same trick as the "50% off sale!" in retail.
nine_k 10y ago
I actually tried to pay 100% out of pocket instead of using insurance. Some procedures may cost comparably if you immediately pay 100% in cash, but these are few (of what I asked). Some medicines may cost comparably, but prescription medications usually cost so much higher it's not even funny, e.g. $100 co-pay vs $550 out of pocket.
- sumoboy 10y ago
  That all great if your only visiting quick care places for minor issues. Wait until your getting a CT scan or a stay in the hospital and let's see how that cash payment works out. Insurance is a gamble regardless, but medical costs are out of control and getting worse.
  - nine_k 10y ago
    My point exactly. Cash payment is a pretty dubious option.

by sedachv 10y ago

NotSammyHagar 10y ago

I think you are completely wrong about medical insurance being cheaper to pay out of pocket than get the insurance. Perhaps this is true for some horrible 100$/month insurance. But my bills all come with: list price, plan discount (usually 30-60% off), next what the ins comp. covers = usually 80% of discounted price, then what I pay, that is a small amount, 20% * 60% * original price. I recently had a drug that wasn't covered by my insurance, they wanted me to use the generic. The non-generic was $288/month out of pocket, the generic cost nothing after the insurance paid their part. on 401ks, i think you might have more of an argument about costs, but since we don't have an alternative, it would lead to many people having no retirement. there's no law that makes people use 401ks instead of private retirement.

jknskjndf 10y ago
On the whole medical insurance is more expensive than paying out of pocket, otherwise the insurance companies would be losing money and wouldn't exist.
- fpoling 10y ago
  Long-term insurance business is losing money. It only exists as small insurance companies can re-insure with bigger ones and the biggest get state support. Also consider that paying out of pocket has transactionall cost and it could be that on average it is cheaper to pay through insurance company.
- endswapper 10y ago
  That's not true. "Float, or available reserve, is the amount of money on hand at any given moment that an insurer has collected in insurance premiums but has not paid out in claims. Insurers start investing insurance premiums as soon as they are collected and continue to earn interest or other income on them until claims are paid out." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance Additionally, Warren Buffet discusses this in fascinating detail over the course of almost 40 years. http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html
  - jknskjndf 10y ago
    Nothing you said makes my statement untrue.
    - endswapper 10y ago
      Pardon if I misunderstood, or misinterpreted your post, but you seemed to be saying that premiums must be more than the claims or they wouldn't/couldn't be in business. That is not true. Even if an insurance company has claims greater than its premiums it could exist, and even be profitable, because of its ability to earn additional revenue through investing its float. You seemed to omit this consideration, which is significant because investment returns on billions of dollars can be significant.
sedachv 10y ago
> list price, plan discount (usually 30-60% off), next what the ins comp. covers = usually 80% of discounted price, then what I pay, that is a small amount, 20% * 60% * original price. I recently had a drug that wasn't covered by my insurance, they wanted me to use the generic. Can you please read/watch linked sources before commenting? The videos go into detail about "plan discounts." tl;dr - it is basically the same trick as the "50% off sale!" in retail.

nine_k 10y ago

I actually tried to pay 100% out of pocket instead of using insurance. Some procedures may cost comparably if you immediately pay 100% in cash, but these are few (of what I asked). Some medicines may cost comparably, but prescription medications usually cost so much higher it's not even funny, e.g. $100 co-pay vs $550 out of pocket.

sumoboy 10y ago
That all great if your only visiting quick care places for minor issues. Wait until your getting a CT scan or a stay in the hospital and let's see how that cash payment works out. Insurance is a gamble regardless, but medical costs are out of control and getting worse.
- nine_k 10y ago
  My point exactly. Cash payment is a pretty dubious option.