4 ms·

Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared. It is perfectly legal for you to mangle

by adekok 10y ago

Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared. It is perfectly legal for you to mangle your own web site. Even if it's a site you made at someone else's request. If they haven't paid, they don't own it, and they have no right to complain.

dangrossman 10y ago
Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes. A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes. But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court. You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their server to destroy/modify the site is not only a civil wrong on your part, but a crime under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
- buzer 10y ago
  What if you just implemented simple DRM? As we have seen, it apparently isn't illegal to disable access to something you have paid for, let alone something you haven't.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  How so? You contract to provide a specific service, not specific code. The contract should be for transfer of a license (of whatever kind) to use the IP and business benefit, not for full transfer of all IP. If a client doesn't pay you respond by denying access to the service - which is exactly the same as a hosting company turning off a server for non-payment of hosting fees. I wouldn't do the fade thing, because while it's entertaining it's rather juvenile. But I would be completely happy to delete all work from a client's server and restore it to its previous state if it's obvious they have no intention of ever paying. This is normal behaviour for a business. Generally if someone tries to default on payment, they can expect goods to be reclaimed and services to be terminated. The fact they're running a business and you're a contractor doesn't change that. You're running a business too. If they don't understand that, save yourself the grief and don't work with them.
  - dangrossman 10y ago
    The hosting company turning off a server is merely acting on property they both own and possess. You "deleting all work from a client's server" are accessing someone else's property, and doing it for destructive purposes. That's illegal, both civilly and criminally. They're not analogous situations. Even in the physical world, repossession companies may not enter a private building without permission. "Goods are reclaimed" by a sheriff carrying out a court order, not by whoever is owed money breaking in and taking things on their own volition.
dogma1138 10y ago
You can't take claim of the IP/copyright no business/client would also sign that contract. You can claim ownership of the work until the payment is cleared but this is also tricky. If the website is hosted on the property of the client tampering with it will constitute a violation of most computer crime/misuse acts even if you hold valid credentials to access it. The best thing to do is if you also operate the website (hosting it on a VPS which you pay for) as part of the contract just terminate the service in accordance to the SLA in the contract, if you do not host the website do not do anything to it just seek legal action.
- k__ 10y ago
  What's so tricky about writing in a contract, that you the owner ship will automatically given to the client after the payment? I mean, who would say into your face that they don't want to pay you for your work? (what not signing such a contract actually implies)
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Ownership of what? the website? fine, it's yours, but it's hosted on a server you don't own and you take it away it's a crime. If i steal your TV and you break into my house to take it back you've committed a felony. Or a better example if you've sent me a TV and I didn't pay you you can't break into my house to claim it back even if the contract we signed states that it is yours until paid in full. This is why a bank needs to get an order to repossess your car or house they can't just take it away even if it's leveraged, we have laws.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Retric 10y ago
      Repossessing stuff is not an uncommon legal situation. Having a rented TV set in your home means little. The cops show up, and you hand it over or go to jail.
brassic 10y ago
It's not that simple. A UK contractor was prosecuted many years ago for putting a time bomb in software he wrote and was never paid for. It remained his software but it was running on their computer. When it ceased to function that was considered to be an authorised change to their system under the computer misuse act. And he was found guilty of a criminal offence. Websites are a bit more of a grey area. Whose server is it? Who's paying for it? Who owns the domain? Whatever the answer to these questions, it's not clear how a judge would decide it. Bottom line: unless your contract makes very clear that your software/website/whatever will cease to function on a particular date you could be looking at time in prison.
- brassic 10y ago
  s/authorised/unauthorised/

by adekok 10y ago

dangrossman 10y ago

Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes. A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes. But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court. You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their server to destroy/modify the site is not only a civil wrong on your part, but a crime under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

buzer 10y ago
What if you just implemented simple DRM? As we have seen, it apparently isn't illegal to disable access to something you have paid for, let alone something you haven't.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
How so? You contract to provide a specific service, not specific code. The contract should be for transfer of a license (of whatever kind) to use the IP and business benefit, not for full transfer of all IP. If a client doesn't pay you respond by denying access to the service - which is exactly the same as a hosting company turning off a server for non-payment of hosting fees. I wouldn't do the fade thing, because while it's entertaining it's rather juvenile. But I would be completely happy to delete all work from a client's server and restore it to its previous state if it's obvious they have no intention of ever paying. This is normal behaviour for a business. Generally if someone tries to default on payment, they can expect goods to be reclaimed and services to be terminated. The fact they're running a business and you're a contractor doesn't change that. You're running a business too. If they don't understand that, save yourself the grief and don't work with them.
- dangrossman 10y ago
  The hosting company turning off a server is merely acting on property they both own and possess. You "deleting all work from a client's server" are accessing someone else's property, and doing it for destructive purposes. That's illegal, both civilly and criminally. They're not analogous situations. Even in the physical world, repossession companies may not enter a private building without permission. "Goods are reclaimed" by a sheriff carrying out a court order, not by whoever is owed money breaking in and taking things on their own volition.

dogma1138 10y ago

You can't take claim of the IP/copyright no business/client would also sign that contract. You can claim ownership of the work until the payment is cleared but this is also tricky. If the website is hosted on the property of the client tampering with it will constitute a violation of most computer crime/misuse acts even if you hold valid credentials to access it. The best thing to do is if you also operate the website (hosting it on a VPS which you pay for) as part of the contract just terminate the service in accordance to the SLA in the contract, if you do not host the website do not do anything to it just seek legal action.

k__ 10y ago
What's so tricky about writing in a contract, that you the owner ship will automatically given to the client after the payment? I mean, who would say into your face that they don't want to pay you for your work? (what not signing such a contract actually implies)
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Ownership of what? the website? fine, it's yours, but it's hosted on a server you don't own and you take it away it's a crime. If i steal your TV and you break into my house to take it back you've committed a felony. Or a better example if you've sent me a TV and I didn't pay you you can't break into my house to claim it back even if the contract we signed states that it is yours until paid in full. This is why a bank needs to get an order to repossess your car or house they can't just take it away even if it's leveraged, we have laws.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 10y ago
    Repossessing stuff is not an uncommon legal situation. Having a rented TV set in your home means little. The cops show up, and you hand it over or go to jail.

brassic 10y ago

It's not that simple. A UK contractor was prosecuted many years ago for putting a time bomb in software he wrote and was never paid for. It remained his software but it was running on their computer. When it ceased to function that was considered to be an authorised change to their system under the computer misuse act. And he was found guilty of a criminal offence. Websites are a bit more of a grey area. Whose server is it? Who's paying for it? Who owns the domain? Whatever the answer to these questions, it's not clear how a judge would decide it. Bottom line: unless your contract makes very clear that your software/website/whatever will cease to function on a particular date you could be looking at time in prison.

brassic 10y ago
s/authorised/unauthorised/