7 ms·

It is illegal. If you already gave up your work and the client still needs to pay better be polite or in the end call a lawyer. Everything harmful to the client

It is illegal. If you already gave up your work and the client still needs to pay better be polite or in the end call a lawyer. Everything harmful to the client that you do is illegal including public shaming, destroying your work, etc.

Retric 10y ago
Nope, public shaming is 100% legal and protected speech. In specific cases it may be a contract breach, but that does not make it illegal. The largest direct problem with this stuff can be a tiny hit to your reputation. That said, they may sue or counter sue you, which is often a dumb move but by not paying you that have demonstrated sketchy behavior.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  This is actually illegal, public shaming would be protected speech if you do it via a proper platform, destroying or tampering with a property which does not belong to you is a criminal offense. Additionally depending on what country you are in this can also be a an offense according to various computer crime laws which means you are not only risking a committing a felony but also being unable to work if the law where you live allows the state to bar you from using a computer.
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    If you word the contract correctly, the property does still belong to you. You can do what you like with it, especially if you make it clear in the contract there are escalating penalties and sanctions for late or non-payment. Honestly, the idea that you're supposed to just shrug and say "Okay, fine I guess" is a self-defeating unprofessional attitude. Clients are not doing you a favour by allowing you to work them. If you sell someone an object, they don't get legal possession until they complete payment for it. (Try to not-pay a house or car loan and see how far you get.) Software services should be no different. There may be more negotiation involved, especially with a genuinely struggling business with good intentions. But deadbeats are deadbeats. Removal of product or service is completely legal and morally valid.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.
      - Retric 10y ago
        Your making several assumptions. DRM is well protected in the law so having a site that stops working without payment is one option. Further you don't need server access you can do a DMCA takedown if they have not paid you as they are hosting content that they don't own. Just look at all the hosting companies which redirect to a page when you stop payment.
        dogma1138 10y ago
        DRM is protected by it's own laws which usually do not involve transfer of ownership. When you buy a movie you do not receive ownerships of the movie. A hosting company has a clause in the contract which states they can terminate service after X days if a payment hasn't been cleared, this isn't the same thing unless you make the contract a service contract in which case you can terminate the service. No one would sign a contract that says that they get some one time restricted license of the website or w/e they paid to you make which can be revoked because you hold the ownership.
        Retric 10y ago
        Remember the basis of contact law is X for Y and you don't do X you don't get Y. Things can get complex when there is initial work paid for and follow on work, but there are plenty of examples out there to work from. Also, if they have not paid in FULL, then they are in breach of contact and thus own nothing. You can't pay off 98% of a mortgage and call it enough, they own the house until they receive the final payment. (Second mortgages are a little different.)
      - gregjor 10y ago
        This is an important point some people commenting here don't get. You can write whatever contract you like, but provisions of a contract that violate or attempt to nullify the law are void on their face. And having a contract does not mean you can break other laws to enforce the contract or remedy a breach. Acting in bad faith, like planting a time bomb in the code, is likely to void the entire contract.
  - mickronome 10y ago
    Depending on contract and jurisdiction, it might not at all be the clients property until fully paid, and it could be completely legal in some places. I know there are plenty of contracts (backed by law AFAIK) where complete ownership and all rights stays with the contractor until paid according to contract. However it would probably be hard to argue that you've actually made the final delivery, as you have to do another 'delivery' after receiving payment to not have the clients site fade away. In any case, it would obviously not change the fact that it would probably be a terrible idea to do something like this, ever.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      Yes, but what makes it complicated is where it is hosted, if it's hosted on a remote server you do not own you've committed trespassing and computer crime by accessing the network and server. In fact you have to be the sole owner of everything in that chain for this to be considered even remotely legal, this includes things like the domain and certificate. And even then it's not that simple since legal ownership isn't the only thing that plays a factor here since the client can claim beneficial ownership which grants them certain rights.

Retric 10y ago

Nope, public shaming is 100% legal and protected speech. In specific cases it may be a contract breach, but that does not make it illegal. The largest direct problem with this stuff can be a tiny hit to your reputation. That said, they may sue or counter sue you, which is often a dumb move but by not paying you that have demonstrated sketchy behavior.

dogma1138 10y ago
This is actually illegal, public shaming would be protected speech if you do it via a proper platform, destroying or tampering with a property which does not belong to you is a criminal offense. Additionally depending on what country you are in this can also be a an offense according to various computer crime laws which means you are not only risking a committing a felony but also being unable to work if the law where you live allows the state to bar you from using a computer.
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  If you word the contract correctly, the property does still belong to you. You can do what you like with it, especially if you make it clear in the contract there are escalating penalties and sanctions for late or non-payment. Honestly, the idea that you're supposed to just shrug and say "Okay, fine I guess" is a self-defeating unprofessional attitude. Clients are not doing you a favour by allowing you to work them. If you sell someone an object, they don't get legal possession until they complete payment for it. (Try to not-pay a house or car loan and see how far you get.) Software services should be no different. There may be more negotiation involved, especially with a genuinely struggling business with good intentions. But deadbeats are deadbeats. Removal of product or service is completely legal and morally valid.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.
    - Retric 10y ago
      Your making several assumptions. DRM is well protected in the law so having a site that stops working without payment is one option. Further you don't need server access you can do a DMCA takedown if they have not paid you as they are hosting content that they don't own. Just look at all the hosting companies which redirect to a page when you stop payment.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        DRM is protected by it's own laws which usually do not involve transfer of ownership. When you buy a movie you do not receive ownerships of the movie. A hosting company has a clause in the contract which states they can terminate service after X days if a payment hasn't been cleared, this isn't the same thing unless you make the contract a service contract in which case you can terminate the service. No one would sign a contract that says that they get some one time restricted license of the website or w/e they paid to you make which can be revoked because you hold the ownership.
        Retric 10y ago
        Remember the basis of contact law is X for Y and you don't do X you don't get Y. Things can get complex when there is initial work paid for and follow on work, but there are plenty of examples out there to work from. Also, if they have not paid in FULL, then they are in breach of contact and thus own nothing. You can't pay off 98% of a mortgage and call it enough, they own the house until they receive the final payment. (Second mortgages are a little different.)
    - gregjor 10y ago
      This is an important point some people commenting here don't get. You can write whatever contract you like, but provisions of a contract that violate or attempt to nullify the law are void on their face. And having a contract does not mean you can break other laws to enforce the contract or remedy a breach. Acting in bad faith, like planting a time bomb in the code, is likely to void the entire contract.
- mickronome 10y ago
  Depending on contract and jurisdiction, it might not at all be the clients property until fully paid, and it could be completely legal in some places. I know there are plenty of contracts (backed by law AFAIK) where complete ownership and all rights stays with the contractor until paid according to contract. However it would probably be hard to argue that you've actually made the final delivery, as you have to do another 'delivery' after receiving payment to not have the clients site fade away. In any case, it would obviously not change the fact that it would probably be a terrible idea to do something like this, ever.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Yes, but what makes it complicated is where it is hosted, if it's hosted on a remote server you do not own you've committed trespassing and computer crime by accessing the network and server. In fact you have to be the sole owner of everything in that chain for this to be considered even remotely legal, this includes things like the domain and certificate. And even then it's not that simple since legal ownership isn't the only thing that plays a factor here since the client can claim beneficial ownership which grants them certain rights.