6 ms·

Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

47 points by andreapaiola 10y ago

tarancato 10y ago
You mean, remove opacity from the body... Such a great idea, though.
- vemv 10y ago
  "Add an opacity CSS rule to the body"
- dietrichepp 10y ago
  "Add opacity" -> opacity is an attribute, which is added to the body.
  - whafro 10y ago
    The body element already has an opacity attribute, defaulted to 1. This explicitly defines it, initially, and decreases it over time.
    - andreapaiola 10y ago
      fade.php or fade.js add the CSS opacity to the <body> see the examples
gcr 10y ago
Is it legal to build self-destruct systems into contracted work? I'd be super wary of adding this...
- drinchev 10y ago
  It is illegal. If you already gave up your work and the client still needs to pay better be polite or in the end call a lawyer. Everything harmful to the client that you do is illegal including public shaming, destroying your work, etc.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Nope, public shaming is 100% legal and protected speech. In specific cases it may be a contract breach, but that does not make it illegal. The largest direct problem with this stuff can be a tiny hit to your reputation. That said, they may sue or counter sue you, which is often a dumb move but by not paying you that have demonstrated sketchy behavior.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      This is actually illegal, public shaming would be protected speech if you do it via a proper platform, destroying or tampering with a property which does not belong to you is a criminal offense. Additionally depending on what country you are in this can also be a an offense according to various computer crime laws which means you are not only risking a committing a felony but also being unable to work if the law where you live allows the state to bar you from using a computer.
      - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
        If you word the contract correctly, the property does still belong to you. You can do what you like with it, especially if you make it clear in the contract there are escalating penalties and sanctions for late or non-payment. Honestly, the idea that you're supposed to just shrug and say "Okay, fine I guess" is a self-defeating unprofessional attitude. Clients are not doing you a favour by allowing you to work them. If you sell someone an object, they don't get legal possession until they complete payment for it. (Try to not-pay a house or car loan and see how far you get.) Software services should be no different. There may be more negotiation involved, especially with a genuinely struggling business with good intentions. But deadbeats are deadbeats. Removal of product or service is completely legal and morally valid.
        dogma1138 10y ago
        Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.
- adekok 10y ago
  Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared. It is perfectly legal for you to mangle your own web site. Even if it's a site you made at someone else's request. If they haven't paid, they don't own it, and they have no right to complain.
  - dangrossman 10y ago
    Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes. A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes. But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court. You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their server to destroy/modify the site is not only a civil wrong on your part, but a crime under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
    - buzer 10y ago
      What if you just implemented simple DRM? As we have seen, it apparently isn't illegal to disable access to something you have paid for, let alone something you haven't.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
      How so? You contract to provide a specific service, not specific code. The contract should be for transfer of a license (of whatever kind) to use the IP and business benefit, not for full transfer of all IP. If a client doesn't pay you respond by denying access to the service - which is exactly the same as a hosting company turning off a server for non-payment of hosting fees. I wouldn't do the fade thing, because while it's entertaining it's rather juvenile. But I would be completely happy to delete all work from a client's server and restore it to its previous state if it's obvious they have no intention of ever paying. This is normal behaviour for a business. Generally if someone tries to default on payment, they can expect goods to be reclaimed and services to be terminated. The fact they're running a business and you're a contractor doesn't change that. You're running a business too. If they don't understand that, save yourself the grief and don't work with them.
- MaulingMonkey 10y ago
  Is it legal to use your content without full payment? Review your contract with your attorney to ensure copyright only transfers upon full payment. (EDIT: And fix this for future contracts if for some silly reason it doesn't.) Non-destructive trial/preview limitations of the content for unlicensed users sounds pretty legal. This isn't even obfuscated, as most DRM/License schemes will be.
kcbanner 10y ago
Sounds like a great way to improve your relationship with the client /s
- dietrichepp 10y ago
  There's no benefit to having a good relationship with a bad client.
k__ 10y ago
Simply do factoring with your bills. You get your money fast and if someone makes problems, the factoring company hsas them. It'ss legal and doesn't need any code.
- vetinari 10y ago
  However, be aware that 1) factoring costs money - you won't get 100%; make sure you take care of that in your asking price, 2) make sure your contract does not prevent the transfer your receivables to third parties without the consent of the debtor. Yes, there are contracts like this, usually as a part of take it or leave it, there are others waiting at the door contracts.
  - k__ 10y ago
    1) yes, your literally selling your risk.
- TamDenholm 10y ago
  I looked into this with my company, we got quotes from 3 factoring companies, all were an absolutely terrible deal. They were only willing to factor invoices on our good clients, they were unwilling to factor invoices for non-large company clients, (we have a lot of SME's as clients), they basically wanted to charge us a fortune and not take on any risk.
edanm 10y ago
Anyone who would even think of doing this is: 1. Extremely unprofessional. 2. Is not taking on the right clients.
- abz10 10y ago
  or... 3. lives in the real world where there are seas of gray Being picky about clients and being able to afford to sue those who don't pay is one of my many privileges. Not everyone can afford to do this.
  - edanm 10y ago
    This has nothing to do with suing clients. Taking some kind of revenge, in a way that's almost certainly actionable, is not really in a gray area - I don't think there is any situation in which it makes sense to do this. As for "being picky about clients", my second point above is indeed aspirational, and I'm sure not everyone can afford to choose their clients. That's my point. You need to realize, as quickly as you can, that you're better off moving to the kinds of clients that don't have these issues. I say this because many people honestly don't understand or believe that better clients exist, or at least don't internalize just how different it is to work for clients for whom these kinds of shenanigans are irrelevant. It really is a different world.
    - abz10 10y ago
      I think most people don't understand how dirty the business world is. Lots of customers and vendors will deny delay and defend out of force of habit alone. I've had to threaten lawsuits a number of time. It was obvious I'd win so they'd settle last minute, but it's just how many people do business. It's much easier to build in something that will atrophy and let them know it'll fall apart if you don't tell them where it is. Much easier restitution. No fuss. Good clients go bad all the time, just like good marriages go bad. You can't rely on a filter. Most of the time there is no option but to work with certain people if you want to be in a particular industry. They're the worst. Just today I have a monopoly supplier that won't fix a very simple but show stopping bug, despite our contract, unless I pay them a lot more money which significantly eats into my margins. It will basically mean I'll be working for them for free, which is exactly how they want it. I have to make out that I'll go out of business, walk away, and they won't make anything. I'm sure we'll end up somewhere in the middle and we will both make a lot of money. If not I will have to go borrow a lot of money from a bank to build the component in house which will upset their monopoly. Just another day it the life of a start-up.
dsacco 10y ago
I know this is probably just made in good fun, but as a consultant who frequently works with startups[1], I recommend not doing something like this. If you have delivered the final product to the client and they are not paying your invoice, your first step should be to try and cordially resolve the situation with a frank discussion about your expectations and mutual commitments, and nudged with references to the signed statement of work. In my experience there are three types of clients. Clients who pay, clients who can't pay, and clients who won't pay. My recourse, and what I recommend to others, is as follows: 1. For new clients, require a 1/3 deposit before you begin the work, payable towards the final invoice. If the client cannot pay the first invoice, you know they will struggle to pay all of them and you haven't wasted your time. 2. Depending on how long the engagement is expected to run, require payments towards the final invoice every n weeks. This limits your exposure in case the client suddenly cannot or will not pay. 3. Ensure that your statements of work and other contracts are reviewed by a competent lawyer (as 'patio11 and 'tptacek would say, pretty much any lawyer as long as they are competent). This limits your liability and exposure in case you need to sue. 4. If there is a disagreement over terms after both parties have signed, or the client cannot pay, be charitable and attempt to resolve it in ways that are not antagonistic. Try to work out payment plans, or change the scope such that it is still affordable for the client. Accept that for certain situations, you will not recoup invoices (e.g. the client literally has no money for you). Steps 1 and 2 are designed to limit the impact for this latter case. 5. If the client will not pay, start with civil discussion first, then escalate by involving lawyers and strongly worded letters. Specifically, do not do anything passive aggressive. I would recommend revoking their license to use the software before you alter their public deployment and potentially cause them brand, reputational or business continuity damage. 6. Establish a high quality pipeline of qualified leads, especially from referrals, who you can consider more trustworthy with invoice payment. In my experience, I have never had a referral default on an invoice. Now, the vast majority of my business comes through referrals (there are many other benefits to a referral pipeline as well). [1]: Read - clients who are statistically likely to default on their outstanding invoices. EDIT: Typo...pipeline of leads from referrals, not lawyers :)
- msandford 10y ago
  The classic Mike Monteiro video is always relevant: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 One of the things people often advocate for is that all copyright/IP be owned by the consultant until paid in full. That way if the client stops paying prior to the work being done or doesn't pay the final invoice, etc you can make a very strong case that it's not just a civil matter, but a criminal one. That can be very motivating. EDIT: That way if the client stops paying but continues to use the existing works, rather. If they stop paying and don't use the works then you'll need different clauses to still get paid there.
Kiro 10y ago
https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-/blob/master/fade.php https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-/blob/master/fade.php What is the point of making this a class rather than just a simple function?
- andreapaiola 10y ago
  It's more powerful, obviously :D No, it's a joke. Well... It's OOP vs procedural in reality, right? If you want it you can PR... a new file fade-procedural.php
- kijin 10y ago
  It ticks the "object-oriented" box. This is a joke project after all, I wouldn't mind seeing even more gratuitous complexity like FadePaidFactoryInterfaceFactory.
andreapaiola 10y ago
I don't know: it's half fun and half serious... Really it's half-serious :D
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
hall_999 10y ago
When I was freelancing, all of my work resided on my own private servers. As soon as I received the final payment, it was transferered to the client. I never had any issues.
BjoernKW 10y ago
I realise this might be somewhat tongue-in-cheek or just a way to vent on some real-life dealings with a client gone awry. However, even just insinuating actually doing something like this in real life (or giving people ideas for that matter) is at least a tad dodgy if not downright unethical. Someone having treated you badly in business (as in not having payed you for whatever reason) doesn't give you the moral (much less so the legal) right to treat them badly in return. That's what lawyers and courts are for (well, not treating others badly - though that might very well be part of the process - but to get recourse).
rhspeer 10y ago
It costs money & time to take people to court, so jerks will under pay you like $2000 because it's not worth the time and effort to go to court over it. Dev is not like other services in the US where we can easily put leans on property. So yea, own the hosting, take down their site if they don't pay. I promise you every business owner has to deal with people that don't pay their bills and will understand. Have a low tolerance for assholes, and if you ever get a lead on a client bad mouthing their previous developers about holding their project hostage, just run.
- tomjen3 10y ago
  You actually can - make it so that in the contract devs retain all copyrights until paid in full. Then you can use the DMCA, which is much cheaper and far easier than putting and enforcing a lean on a property. That said, when you get that far in a sense you have already lost.

47 points by andreapaiola 10y ago

tarancato 10y ago

You mean, remove opacity from the body... Such a great idea, though.

vemv 10y ago
"Add an opacity CSS rule to the body"
dietrichepp 10y ago
"Add opacity" -> opacity is an attribute, which is added to the body.
- whafro 10y ago
  The body element already has an opacity attribute, defaulted to 1. This explicitly defines it, initially, and decreases it over time.
  - andreapaiola 10y ago
    fade.php or fade.js add the CSS opacity to the <body> see the examples

gcr 10y ago

Is it legal to build self-destruct systems into contracted work? I'd be super wary of adding this...

drinchev 10y ago
It is illegal. If you already gave up your work and the client still needs to pay better be polite or in the end call a lawyer. Everything harmful to the client that you do is illegal including public shaming, destroying your work, etc.
- Retric 10y ago
  Nope, public shaming is 100% legal and protected speech. In specific cases it may be a contract breach, but that does not make it illegal. The largest direct problem with this stuff can be a tiny hit to your reputation. That said, they may sue or counter sue you, which is often a dumb move but by not paying you that have demonstrated sketchy behavior.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    This is actually illegal, public shaming would be protected speech if you do it via a proper platform, destroying or tampering with a property which does not belong to you is a criminal offense. Additionally depending on what country you are in this can also be a an offense according to various computer crime laws which means you are not only risking a committing a felony but also being unable to work if the law where you live allows the state to bar you from using a computer.
    - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
      If you word the contract correctly, the property does still belong to you. You can do what you like with it, especially if you make it clear in the contract there are escalating penalties and sanctions for late or non-payment. Honestly, the idea that you're supposed to just shrug and say "Okay, fine I guess" is a self-defeating unprofessional attitude. Clients are not doing you a favour by allowing you to work them. If you sell someone an object, they don't get legal possession until they complete payment for it. (Try to not-pay a house or car loan and see how far you get.) Software services should be no different. There may be more negotiation involved, especially with a genuinely struggling business with good intentions. But deadbeats are deadbeats. Removal of product or service is completely legal and morally valid.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.
adekok 10y ago
Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared. It is perfectly legal for you to mangle your own web site. Even if it's a site you made at someone else's request. If they haven't paid, they don't own it, and they have no right to complain.
- dangrossman 10y ago
  Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes. A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes. But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court. You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their server to destroy/modify the site is not only a civil wrong on your part, but a crime under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
  - buzer 10y ago
    What if you just implemented simple DRM? As we have seen, it apparently isn't illegal to disable access to something you have paid for, let alone something you haven't.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    How so? You contract to provide a specific service, not specific code. The contract should be for transfer of a license (of whatever kind) to use the IP and business benefit, not for full transfer of all IP. If a client doesn't pay you respond by denying access to the service - which is exactly the same as a hosting company turning off a server for non-payment of hosting fees. I wouldn't do the fade thing, because while it's entertaining it's rather juvenile. But I would be completely happy to delete all work from a client's server and restore it to its previous state if it's obvious they have no intention of ever paying. This is normal behaviour for a business. Generally if someone tries to default on payment, they can expect goods to be reclaimed and services to be terminated. The fact they're running a business and you're a contractor doesn't change that. You're running a business too. If they don't understand that, save yourself the grief and don't work with them.
MaulingMonkey 10y ago
Is it legal to use your content without full payment? Review your contract with your attorney to ensure copyright only transfers upon full payment. (EDIT: And fix this for future contracts if for some silly reason it doesn't.) Non-destructive trial/preview limitations of the content for unlicensed users sounds pretty legal. This isn't even obfuscated, as most DRM/License schemes will be.

kcbanner 10y ago

Sounds like a great way to improve your relationship with the client /s

dietrichepp 10y ago
There's no benefit to having a good relationship with a bad client.

k__ 10y ago

Simply do factoring with your bills. You get your money fast and if someone makes problems, the factoring company hsas them. It'ss legal and doesn't need any code.

vetinari 10y ago
However, be aware that 1) factoring costs money - you won't get 100%; make sure you take care of that in your asking price, 2) make sure your contract does not prevent the transfer your receivables to third parties without the consent of the debtor. Yes, there are contracts like this, usually as a part of take it or leave it, there are others waiting at the door contracts.
- k__ 10y ago
  1) yes, your literally selling your risk.
TamDenholm 10y ago
I looked into this with my company, we got quotes from 3 factoring companies, all were an absolutely terrible deal. They were only willing to factor invoices on our good clients, they were unwilling to factor invoices for non-large company clients, (we have a lot of SME's as clients), they basically wanted to charge us a fortune and not take on any risk.

edanm 10y ago

Anyone who would even think of doing this is: 1. Extremely unprofessional. 2. Is not taking on the right clients.

abz10 10y ago
or... 3. lives in the real world where there are seas of gray Being picky about clients and being able to afford to sue those who don't pay is one of my many privileges. Not everyone can afford to do this.
- edanm 10y ago
  This has nothing to do with suing clients. Taking some kind of revenge, in a way that's almost certainly actionable, is not really in a gray area - I don't think there is any situation in which it makes sense to do this. As for "being picky about clients", my second point above is indeed aspirational, and I'm sure not everyone can afford to choose their clients. That's my point. You need to realize, as quickly as you can, that you're better off moving to the kinds of clients that don't have these issues. I say this because many people honestly don't understand or believe that better clients exist, or at least don't internalize just how different it is to work for clients for whom these kinds of shenanigans are irrelevant. It really is a different world.
  - abz10 10y ago
    I think most people don't understand how dirty the business world is. Lots of customers and vendors will deny delay and defend out of force of habit alone. I've had to threaten lawsuits a number of time. It was obvious I'd win so they'd settle last minute, but it's just how many people do business. It's much easier to build in something that will atrophy and let them know it'll fall apart if you don't tell them where it is. Much easier restitution. No fuss. Good clients go bad all the time, just like good marriages go bad. You can't rely on a filter. Most of the time there is no option but to work with certain people if you want to be in a particular industry. They're the worst. Just today I have a monopoly supplier that won't fix a very simple but show stopping bug, despite our contract, unless I pay them a lot more money which significantly eats into my margins. It will basically mean I'll be working for them for free, which is exactly how they want it. I have to make out that I'll go out of business, walk away, and they won't make anything. I'm sure we'll end up somewhere in the middle and we will both make a lot of money. If not I will have to go borrow a lot of money from a bank to build the component in house which will upset their monopoly. Just another day it the life of a start-up.

dsacco 10y ago

I know this is probably just made in good fun, but as a consultant who frequently works with startups[1], I recommend not doing something like this. If you have delivered the final product to the client and they are not paying your invoice, your first step should be to try and cordially resolve the situation with a frank discussion about your expectations and mutual commitments, and nudged with references to the signed statement of work. In my experience there are three types of clients. Clients who pay, clients who can't pay, and clients who won't pay. My recourse, and what I recommend to others, is as follows: 1. For new clients, require a 1/3 deposit before you begin the work, payable towards the final invoice. If the client cannot pay the first invoice, you know they will struggle to pay all of them and you haven't wasted your time. 2. Depending on how long the engagement is expected to run, require payments towards the final invoice every n weeks. This limits your exposure in case the client suddenly cannot or will not pay. 3. Ensure that your statements of work and other contracts are reviewed by a competent lawyer (as 'patio11 and 'tptacek would say, pretty much any lawyer as long as they are competent). This limits your liability and exposure in case you need to sue. 4. If there is a disagreement over terms after both parties have signed, or the client cannot pay, be charitable and attempt to resolve it in ways that are not antagonistic. Try to work out payment plans, or change the scope such that it is still affordable for the client. Accept that for certain situations, you will not recoup invoices (e.g. the client literally has no money for you). Steps 1 and 2 are designed to limit the impact for this latter case. 5. If the client will not pay, start with civil discussion first, then escalate by involving lawyers and strongly worded letters. Specifically, do not do anything passive aggressive. I would recommend revoking their license to use the software before you alter their public deployment and potentially cause them brand, reputational or business continuity damage. 6. Establish a high quality pipeline of qualified leads, especially from referrals, who you can consider more trustworthy with invoice payment. In my experience, I have never had a referral default on an invoice. Now, the vast majority of my business comes through referrals (there are many other benefits to a referral pipeline as well). [1]: Read - clients who are statistically likely to default on their outstanding invoices. EDIT: Typo...pipeline of leads from referrals, not lawyers :)

msandford 10y ago
The classic Mike Monteiro video is always relevant: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 One of the things people often advocate for is that all copyright/IP be owned by the consultant until paid in full. That way if the client stops paying prior to the work being done or doesn't pay the final invoice, etc you can make a very strong case that it's not just a civil matter, but a criminal one. That can be very motivating. EDIT: That way if the client stops paying but continues to use the existing works, rather. If they stop paying and don't use the works then you'll need different clauses to still get paid there.

Kiro 10y ago

https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-/blob/master/fade.php https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-/blob/master/fade.php What is the point of making this a class rather than just a simple function?

andreapaiola 10y ago
It's more powerful, obviously :D No, it's a joke. Well... It's OOP vs procedural in reality, right? If you want it you can PR... a new file fade-procedural.php
kijin 10y ago
It ticks the "object-oriented" box. This is a joke project after all, I wouldn't mind seeing even more gratuitous complexity like FadePaidFactoryInterfaceFactory.

andreapaiola 10y ago

I don't know: it's half fun and half serious... Really it's half-serious :D

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

hall_999 10y ago

When I was freelancing, all of my work resided on my own private servers. As soon as I received the final payment, it was transferered to the client. I never had any issues.

BjoernKW 10y ago

I realise this might be somewhat tongue-in-cheek or just a way to vent on some real-life dealings with a client gone awry. However, even just insinuating actually doing something like this in real life (or giving people ideas for that matter) is at least a tad dodgy if not downright unethical. Someone having treated you badly in business (as in not having payed you for whatever reason) doesn't give you the moral (much less so the legal) right to treat them badly in return. That's what lawyers and courts are for (well, not treating others badly - though that might very well be part of the process - but to get recourse).

rhspeer 10y ago

It costs money & time to take people to court, so jerks will under pay you like $2000 because it's not worth the time and effort to go to court over it. Dev is not like other services in the US where we can easily put leans on property. So yea, own the hosting, take down their site if they don't pay. I promise you every business owner has to deal with people that don't pay their bills and will understand. Have a low tolerance for assholes, and if you ever get a lead on a client bad mouthing their previous developers about holding their project hostage, just run.

tomjen3 10y ago
You actually can - make it so that in the contract devs retain all copyrights until paid in full. Then you can use the DMCA, which is much cheaper and far easier than putting and enforcing a lean on a property. That said, when you get that far in a sense you have already lost.