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> Check out Trump's rhetoric: he admires Putin, he clearly doesn't want war. Check out Clinton's rhetoric: conflict. I am embarrassed to say, but you've just c

by oneloop 10y ago

> Check out Trump's rhetoric: he admires Putin, he clearly doesn't want war. Check out Clinton's rhetoric: conflict. I am embarrassed to say, but you've just changed my mind to vote for Trump. I'm fundamentally a single issue voter. I think the most important problem is one that no one in the world is talking about right now: escalation with Russia. The situation has slowly been getting worse since 2002 when the US withdrew from the anti-ballistic missile treaty [1] and is getting worse faster. I also think there's a massive misinformation from the US government about its interactions with the Russian government. What I mean is that the narrative that the US government tells its citizens is that anything that the former does is very well justified (eg bombing Syria) whereas anything that the later does is just because Russians are evil (eg invading Ukraine). Yes, obviously the Russian government uses the same misinformation on their citizens, the difference is that the US is much more successful at this game at the international level. The problem with the citizens specifically is that if two governments are enemies and they have the support of their respective populations... you can imagine what a small leap it is to start war. Yes, Trump is a racist dimwit, but I think that is secondary compared to the consequences of more war. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty

HelloMcFly 10y ago
What an incredibly myopic view. Trump plays conflict every bit, if not more, than Clinton; the one area Trump is less conflict-focused is Russia, whose semi-totalitarian leader Trump admires and would like to emulate. [1][2] Trump is the only candidate who has openly floated the idea of using nuclear weapons. [3] Trump is ready to start a political pissing war with Mexico over a wall. [4][5] Trump wants to ban all Muslim travel to the US, and profile all US Muslims. [6] Trump, the "Law and Order" candidate, would prefer to convict minority men based on police testimony alone, never mind the courts [7] Trump is more militaristic, by his own admission, then George W. Bush [8] Trump called for direct intervention in Libya just like other leaders [9] Trump basically wants to steal oil from Iraq using our troops as the muscle [10] Trump is doing more sabre-rattling with China than Clinton, by a mile [11] Trump wants China to invade North Korea, or just have its leader assassinated Trump, the anti-conflict vote? He makes everyone an enemy, including and especially our own citizens. His followers like him because he's a strongman, a bully. But sure, he's the anti-conflict vote because he admires Putin. Never mind the fallout for everyone else, especially poor, non-white citizens. I suppose if you think an actual war is likely or possible with Russia then your fears are founded. That seems more than outlandish to me, and far from justification for putting a racist, misogynist bully in charge or the country and nominating Supreme Court justices. --- 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCHQPCXbt1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCHQPCXbt1w 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVTAaJ1fzfc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVTAaJ1fzfc 3. Do you need a citation for this? 4. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/07/24/donald-trump-is-expanding-his-muslim-ban-not-rolling-it-back/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/07... 5. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06/19/donald-trump-calls-profiling-muslims-common-sense/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06... 6. http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-says-central-park-five-are-guilty-despite-dna-n661941 http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-s... 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PakHtuTrvV8&feature=youtu.be&t=49m46s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PakHtuTrvV8&feature=youtu.be... 8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnZFQiDR4hQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnZFQiDR4hQ 9. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZxD_RFvXpA&feature=youtu.be&t=22m50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZxD_RFvXpA&feature=youtu.be... 10. Watch the debates 11. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/09/27/did-trump-really-just-suggest-that-china-should-invade-north-korea/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/09/27...
- oneloop 10y ago
  Dude, you didn't need all the citations. I am very keenly aware of every stupid thing Trump has ever said, probably. And I repeat that all of those things are secondary compared to this. Unfortunately, I don't think war with Russia is outlandish at all. Like I said, for the past 10 years Russia has been repeatedly saying that the US's missile "shield" is threatening their nuclear capabilities (please please see [1], or you won't understand where I'm coming from). Obviously, there is the question of: do they really believe their nuclear capabilities are threatened, or are they just using that as a talking point? If they actually do, that's by far more dangerous than anything Trump can do. You know what happens if you corner a rat, right? All I said is that the above is more important than Trump's idiocy. I'm not sure why you think this is a myopic view. It's not like I don't know about the things you mentioned. I know about them and took them into account. In fact, I've always said I'd vote Clinton because Trump is too much of a wild card. But actually... as things are, I'd rather take the wild card. [1] If you're actually interested in informing yourself about this, start with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo The bit I'm talking about starts at 4:00 to roughly 9:00.
  - ting_bu_dung 10y ago
    1.) you're assuming voting for hillary is automatic war with Russia. and would vote based on that single fallacy. (very doubtful you're american anyways) 2.) You, being "single issue" voter, ignore that trump is a psychopathic, women-hating, racist, tax-dodging, russia-affiliated antichrist who will bring shame and destruction to America. 3.) You are so afraid of Russia (they're failing economically, politically, and technically) that you would vote a madman into the US office. You are the type of people that would vote in Hitler.
    - oneloop 10y ago
      > 1.) you're assuming voting for hillary is automatic war with Russia. and would vote based on that single fallacy. No, I'm assuming that hillary would be very similar to obama and bush. You're the one making the wrong assumption. > 2.) You, being "single issue" voter, ignore that trump is a psychopathic, women-hating, racist, tax-dodging, russia-affiliated antichrist who will bring shame and destruction to America. Like I said above, I don't ignore any of the things you mentioned, as I've been following the subject extremely closely. In all likelihood I'm better informed about how flawed Trump is than you are. > 3.) You are so afraid of Russia (they're failing economically, politically, and technically) that you would vote a madman into the US office (doubtful you're american anyways) I'm not afraid of Russia, I'm afraid of war. War isn't "we win they lose". More likely, we both lose. In any case, you're mistaken in saying that they're failing in any of the categories you mentioned. Russia was failing in the 90s. I guess you haven't been keeping with the world outside of your bubble since then. > You are the type of people that would vote in Hitler. Aright buddy, just lost interest :D
deleted 10y ago
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Freestyler_3 10y ago
As far as I know from the debate, Trump does not adore Russia. ( I guess he does not want to blame and name and shame. ) Trump wants to stay ahead of Russia in nuclear capability. He does not want to strike first. When I heard in the debate what Clinton wants; She wants to let Russia improve their nukes but not the USA's. Clinton Likes to call out Russia in public and calls for responses in public. ( I think calling this out in public isn't the most tactical thing to do, its not called poking the bear for nothing ) But, I am aware of Trump saying contradicting things. So its going to be a surprise.
- oneloop 10y ago
  > As far as I know from the debate, Trump does not adore Russia. Yeah, who knows, the guy is a moron, I'm not sure he himself knows what his position on the subject is. > When I heard in the debate what Clinton wants; She wants to let Russia improve their nukes but not the USA's. That definitely does not sound like Clinton. Reference? > Clinton Likes to call out Russia in public and calls for responses in public. Putin does that all the time too. I think they're both posturing for their domestic audiences, who want them to be strong against the "enemy".
  - Freestyler_3 10y ago
    I am very sorry, You are right to correct me Clinton did not say that. (however I did not really get a clear answer on how she feels, but that might be my lack of understanding her) Trump might be a moron in your eyes, I think he is very untalented in the political way of talking. I don't think being comparable to Putin is good or smart.
    - oneloop 10y ago
      > I don't think being comparable to Putin is good or smart. I get what you're saying, but this has been textbook politics since forever. The most reliable way to rally people around you is convince them there is a great danger in X, and only you can save them from X. Every single politician does it. And it's easier if X is external. Clinton does it with "the Russians", Putin does it with "the Americans", Trump does it with "the Muslims and the Mexicans". In the UK Nigel Farage does with Europe/the immigrants. I'm not saying that aren't some times external dangers. But these four characters I mentioned use this just as a political tool. And this is was brought me to what I wrote at the top of this thread. This is very concerning especially in the case of Clinton/Putin, because when they've been using each other as a political tool eventually your population have been fed so much shit for so long, they actually hate the enemy country. And when that happens it gets even easier to start war. And that is really concerning :-/

by oneloop 10y ago

HelloMcFly 10y ago

What an incredibly myopic view. Trump plays conflict every bit, if not more, than Clinton; the one area Trump is less conflict-focused is Russia, whose semi-totalitarian leader Trump admires and would like to emulate. [1][2] Trump is the only candidate who has openly floated the idea of using nuclear weapons. [3] Trump is ready to start a political pissing war with Mexico over a wall. [4][5] Trump wants to ban all Muslim travel to the US, and profile all US Muslims. [6] Trump, the "Law and Order" candidate, would prefer to convict minority men based on police testimony alone, never mind the courts [7] Trump is more militaristic, by his own admission, then George W. Bush [8] Trump called for direct intervention in Libya just like other leaders [9] Trump basically wants to steal oil from Iraq using our troops as the muscle [10] Trump is doing more sabre-rattling with China than Clinton, by a mile [11] Trump wants China to invade North Korea, or just have its leader assassinated Trump, the anti-conflict vote? He makes everyone an enemy, including and especially our own citizens. His followers like him because he's a strongman, a bully. But sure, he's the anti-conflict vote because he admires Putin. Never mind the fallout for everyone else, especially poor, non-white citizens. I suppose if you think an actual war is likely or possible with Russia then your fears are founded. That seems more than outlandish to me, and far from justification for putting a racist, misogynist bully in charge or the country and nominating Supreme Court justices. --- 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCHQPCXbt1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCHQPCXbt1w 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVTAaJ1fzfc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVTAaJ1fzfc 3. Do you need a citation for this? 4. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/07/24/donald-trump-is-expanding-his-muslim-ban-not-rolling-it-back/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/07... 5. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06/19/donald-trump-calls-profiling-muslims-common-sense/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06... 6. http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-says-central-park-five-are-guilty-despite-dna-n661941 http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-s... 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PakHtuTrvV8&feature=youtu.be&t=49m46s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PakHtuTrvV8&feature=youtu.be... 8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnZFQiDR4hQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnZFQiDR4hQ 9. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZxD_RFvXpA&feature=youtu.be&t=22m50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZxD_RFvXpA&feature=youtu.be... 10. Watch the debates 11. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/09/27/did-trump-really-just-suggest-that-china-should-invade-north-korea/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/09/27...

oneloop 10y ago
Dude, you didn't need all the citations. I am very keenly aware of every stupid thing Trump has ever said, probably. And I repeat that all of those things are secondary compared to this. Unfortunately, I don't think war with Russia is outlandish at all. Like I said, for the past 10 years Russia has been repeatedly saying that the US's missile "shield" is threatening their nuclear capabilities (please please see [1], or you won't understand where I'm coming from). Obviously, there is the question of: do they really believe their nuclear capabilities are threatened, or are they just using that as a talking point? If they actually do, that's by far more dangerous than anything Trump can do. You know what happens if you corner a rat, right? All I said is that the above is more important than Trump's idiocy. I'm not sure why you think this is a myopic view. It's not like I don't know about the things you mentioned. I know about them and took them into account. In fact, I've always said I'd vote Clinton because Trump is too much of a wild card. But actually... as things are, I'd rather take the wild card. [1] If you're actually interested in informing yourself about this, start with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo The bit I'm talking about starts at 4:00 to roughly 9:00.
- ting_bu_dung 10y ago
  1.) you're assuming voting for hillary is automatic war with Russia. and would vote based on that single fallacy. (very doubtful you're american anyways) 2.) You, being "single issue" voter, ignore that trump is a psychopathic, women-hating, racist, tax-dodging, russia-affiliated antichrist who will bring shame and destruction to America. 3.) You are so afraid of Russia (they're failing economically, politically, and technically) that you would vote a madman into the US office. You are the type of people that would vote in Hitler.
  - oneloop 10y ago
    > 1.) you're assuming voting for hillary is automatic war with Russia. and would vote based on that single fallacy. No, I'm assuming that hillary would be very similar to obama and bush. You're the one making the wrong assumption. > 2.) You, being "single issue" voter, ignore that trump is a psychopathic, women-hating, racist, tax-dodging, russia-affiliated antichrist who will bring shame and destruction to America. Like I said above, I don't ignore any of the things you mentioned, as I've been following the subject extremely closely. In all likelihood I'm better informed about how flawed Trump is than you are. > 3.) You are so afraid of Russia (they're failing economically, politically, and technically) that you would vote a madman into the US office (doubtful you're american anyways) I'm not afraid of Russia, I'm afraid of war. War isn't "we win they lose". More likely, we both lose. In any case, you're mistaken in saying that they're failing in any of the categories you mentioned. Russia was failing in the 90s. I guess you haven't been keeping with the world outside of your bubble since then. > You are the type of people that would vote in Hitler. Aright buddy, just lost interest :D

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Freestyler_3 10y ago

As far as I know from the debate, Trump does not adore Russia. ( I guess he does not want to blame and name and shame. ) Trump wants to stay ahead of Russia in nuclear capability. He does not want to strike first. When I heard in the debate what Clinton wants; She wants to let Russia improve their nukes but not the USA's. Clinton Likes to call out Russia in public and calls for responses in public. ( I think calling this out in public isn't the most tactical thing to do, its not called poking the bear for nothing ) But, I am aware of Trump saying contradicting things. So its going to be a surprise.

oneloop 10y ago
> As far as I know from the debate, Trump does not adore Russia. Yeah, who knows, the guy is a moron, I'm not sure he himself knows what his position on the subject is. > When I heard in the debate what Clinton wants; She wants to let Russia improve their nukes but not the USA's. That definitely does not sound like Clinton. Reference? > Clinton Likes to call out Russia in public and calls for responses in public. Putin does that all the time too. I think they're both posturing for their domestic audiences, who want them to be strong against the "enemy".
- Freestyler_3 10y ago
  I am very sorry, You are right to correct me Clinton did not say that. (however I did not really get a clear answer on how she feels, but that might be my lack of understanding her) Trump might be a moron in your eyes, I think he is very untalented in the political way of talking. I don't think being comparable to Putin is good or smart.
  - oneloop 10y ago
    > I don't think being comparable to Putin is good or smart. I get what you're saying, but this has been textbook politics since forever. The most reliable way to rally people around you is convince them there is a great danger in X, and only you can save them from X. Every single politician does it. And it's easier if X is external. Clinton does it with "the Russians", Putin does it with "the Americans", Trump does it with "the Muslims and the Mexicans". In the UK Nigel Farage does with Europe/the immigrants. I'm not saying that aren't some times external dangers. But these four characters I mentioned use this just as a political tool. And this is was brought me to what I wrote at the top of this thread. This is very concerning especially in the case of Clinton/Putin, because when they've been using each other as a political tool eventually your population have been fed so much shit for so long, they actually hate the enemy country. And when that happens it gets even easier to start war. And that is really concerning :-/