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Experimenting with education is what broke the system in the first place. We can't very well go back to how anything was in the 1960s because times have changed

Experimenting with education is what broke the system in the first place. We can't very well go back to how anything was in the 1960s because times have changed, but that's not to say those methods are completely broken. Common core is a hideous atrocity that has been proven to hurt young children's minds and cause them to do things in redundant or roundabout ways. I've been experimented on throughout my school career - some of it good most of it bad. Taking education out of its broken state is important, but breaking it more helps no one. Proceed carefully and think things through before possibly ruining the education and, by extension, their lives. Education is seriously important. It takes a lot of work to rewrite your brain after being taught wrong.

Spooky23 10y ago
This is why my wife and I decided to make a serious sacrifice and send our kids to private school.
Conlectus 10y ago
I agree that education is extremely important. "a hideous atrocity that has been proven to hurt young children's minds" is extremely alarmist. I don't think that helps conversation, but I can understand your passion. Where have you seen that Common Core is harmful? Most sources in my (admittedly limited) research suggest that it is far to early to tell an effect. The most cited report seems to be https://www.brookings.edu/research/a-progress-report-on-the-common-core/#cancel https://www.brookings.edu/research/a-progress-report-on-the-... . However, the data reported here is extremely messy. Looking at table 3-2 the conclusion that CC may be harmful is drawn from the fact that n=1 has an improvement of ~2.25, whereas n=5 has an improvement of only 1.94. However, n=4 is at -0.83, n=3 at 1.8 etc. Results are all over the map. In my opinion there is no clear pattern, let alone a "proven" result. If there is research I have missed I would genuinely like to hear it. I don't have a fixed opinion.
- helthanatos 10y ago
  My passion comes from being taught some math wrong. The common core algebra books don't cover some things and the books we used for algebra 1 and 2 were pretty much the same. When I moved schools from a charter school that was an early adopter of common core to a public high school (common core is repealed in my state) my new math teacher told me I should have learned a lot more than I did. It's not completely the common core book's fault - my teacher was also pretty lax. My teachers that I would classify as "good" have all had disdain for it. Whether they just don't like change or if they see harm in that change, I prefer an even playing ground for everyone and guessing about what changes are needed can be harmful. I don't have any research about it because I just have personal feelings about it. Some of my relatives can't count without drawing something or multiply because they have to draw a lattice.
WalterBright 10y ago
People thought education in the 1960s was broken, too. See the book "Why Johnny Can't Read". Then, the "new math" was invented, and people concluded education was broken. Now, "common core" and it's deja vu all over again.
ThrustVectoring 10y ago
No, what broke education is a fundamental misalignment in motives between the folks advocating for, paying for, and running education, and the actual children who go through with it. The things the decision makers are optimizing for are so very far removed from the actual experience of children. Like, how exactly does administering a multi-day standardized test help children? It's clear how it helps parents - they get to send their children to "better" schools. It's clear how it helps administrators - it gives them political cover for the decisions they make. But the actual children involved? Pretty damn near pointless, and the test is just the tip of the iceberg really. I don't have high hopes for education reform movements, either. The direction education needs to go to get better is simply "less", and there's no incentives for doing so. (After all, how can you get credit for "helping children" if you're not actively doing anything?).
- candiodari 10y ago
  In my experience, what Common Core is really doing is allowing (and giving cover for) teachers who don't know the subject they're teaching. They cheat, because the only alternative is to actually become decent and fast in the subjects themselves, and that requires more knowledge and work than they'll ever put in. My kids math teacher tried to defend for >20 minutes to me that you cannot ever differentiate an equation with matrices instead of numbers. Well ... I made sure my kids double check with me if something sounds odd, and I'm forcing them to go through khan academy exercises. This is probably exactly what administrators want, though. Cheap teachers, and damn the consequences.
  - throwaway729 10y ago
    > This is probably exactly what administrators want, though. Cheap teachers, and damn the consequences. Are you kidding? Administrators live or die on test scores, and the non-brain-dead ones realize that good teachers are the best way to get those test scores. They don't really have a choice, though -- they work with what they're given in tax money and in many states don't even have any autonomy in compensation (NEA). IMO the problem is way earlier in the pipeline, anyways. Even if administrators deeply cared about quality, they'd find a shallow pool. As a good rule of thumb, people who are good at mathematics don't become teachers. They become engineers or go into finance and consulting or write software. And it's all about pay and quality of work environment. I'd teach high school math in a heart beat if the working conditions were more reasonable and it paid even half as well as my other options.

Spooky23 10y ago

This is why my wife and I decided to make a serious sacrifice and send our kids to private school.

Conlectus 10y ago

I agree that education is extremely important. "a hideous atrocity that has been proven to hurt young children's minds" is extremely alarmist. I don't think that helps conversation, but I can understand your passion. Where have you seen that Common Core is harmful? Most sources in my (admittedly limited) research suggest that it is far to early to tell an effect. The most cited report seems to be https://www.brookings.edu/research/a-progress-report-on-the-common-core/#cancel https://www.brookings.edu/research/a-progress-report-on-the-... . However, the data reported here is extremely messy. Looking at table 3-2 the conclusion that CC may be harmful is drawn from the fact that n=1 has an improvement of ~2.25, whereas n=5 has an improvement of only 1.94. However, n=4 is at -0.83, n=3 at 1.8 etc. Results are all over the map. In my opinion there is no clear pattern, let alone a "proven" result. If there is research I have missed I would genuinely like to hear it. I don't have a fixed opinion.

helthanatos 10y ago
My passion comes from being taught some math wrong. The common core algebra books don't cover some things and the books we used for algebra 1 and 2 were pretty much the same. When I moved schools from a charter school that was an early adopter of common core to a public high school (common core is repealed in my state) my new math teacher told me I should have learned a lot more than I did. It's not completely the common core book's fault - my teacher was also pretty lax. My teachers that I would classify as "good" have all had disdain for it. Whether they just don't like change or if they see harm in that change, I prefer an even playing ground for everyone and guessing about what changes are needed can be harmful. I don't have any research about it because I just have personal feelings about it. Some of my relatives can't count without drawing something or multiply because they have to draw a lattice.

WalterBright 10y ago

People thought education in the 1960s was broken, too. See the book "Why Johnny Can't Read". Then, the "new math" was invented, and people concluded education was broken. Now, "common core" and it's deja vu all over again.

ThrustVectoring 10y ago

No, what broke education is a fundamental misalignment in motives between the folks advocating for, paying for, and running education, and the actual children who go through with it. The things the decision makers are optimizing for are so very far removed from the actual experience of children. Like, how exactly does administering a multi-day standardized test help children? It's clear how it helps parents - they get to send their children to "better" schools. It's clear how it helps administrators - it gives them political cover for the decisions they make. But the actual children involved? Pretty damn near pointless, and the test is just the tip of the iceberg really. I don't have high hopes for education reform movements, either. The direction education needs to go to get better is simply "less", and there's no incentives for doing so. (After all, how can you get credit for "helping children" if you're not actively doing anything?).

candiodari 10y ago
In my experience, what Common Core is really doing is allowing (and giving cover for) teachers who don't know the subject they're teaching. They cheat, because the only alternative is to actually become decent and fast in the subjects themselves, and that requires more knowledge and work than they'll ever put in. My kids math teacher tried to defend for >20 minutes to me that you cannot ever differentiate an equation with matrices instead of numbers. Well ... I made sure my kids double check with me if something sounds odd, and I'm forcing them to go through khan academy exercises. This is probably exactly what administrators want, though. Cheap teachers, and damn the consequences.
- throwaway729 10y ago
  > This is probably exactly what administrators want, though. Cheap teachers, and damn the consequences. Are you kidding? Administrators live or die on test scores, and the non-brain-dead ones realize that good teachers are the best way to get those test scores. They don't really have a choice, though -- they work with what they're given in tax money and in many states don't even have any autonomy in compensation (NEA). IMO the problem is way earlier in the pipeline, anyways. Even if administrators deeply cared about quality, they'd find a shallow pool. As a good rule of thumb, people who are good at mathematics don't become teachers. They become engineers or go into finance and consulting or write software. And it's all about pay and quality of work environment. I'd teach high school math in a heart beat if the working conditions were more reasonable and it paid even half as well as my other options.