5 ms·

Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos meet "Ginger"

106 points by jasonlbaptiste 17y ago

jasonlbaptiste 17y ago
Oldie, but goodie.
philwelch 17y ago
"Not a good reason, in Jobs's view, because the code could easily be reverse-engineered. No it couldn't, said Tim. Could, said Jobs." I don't know where Jobs gets his instincts about this stuff, but he was totally right: http://tlb.org/scooter.html http://tlb.org/scooter.html
- roc 17y ago
  It's easy: any code can easily be reverse- or re-engineered. In a world where people crack encryption schemes or write open-source drivers for hardware without any documentation or specifications to speak of -- for fun, mind you -- it's the height of either arrogance or ignorance to assume that something won't be re-created just because it's hard.
- qq66 17y ago
  I don't see any evidence that this is a "reverse engineering" of a Segway - it seems to be more of a "re-engineering" from scratch.
  - InclinedPlane 17y ago
    Is there a practical difference?
    - qq66 17y ago
      Yes, a re-engineering cannot be prevented by the original company through secrecy, obfuscation, or legal threats.
- tlrobinson 17y ago
  And again: "We have a few things they can't get," said Dean. "Specialty components with only one source." "They'll figure out a way around that," said Jobs. "I've spent nine years looking," said Dean, "and I don't think so."
teye 17y ago
Awesome to read a detailed account of instant-on insight and tough questions from two giants. Steve's intolerance of business as usual is particularly inspiring.
- nzmsv 17y ago
  Really? I can't believe they missed the obvious: "You have a product so revolutionary, you'll have no problem selling it. The question is, are people going to be allowed to use it?" That's Segway's problem right there. Just because something is revolutionary, doesn't mean it will sell. These business giants made the exact same mistake we all make - assume other people will get as excited as we are.
  - CamperBob 17y ago
    "You have a product so revolutionary, you'll have no problem selling it. The question is, are people going to be allowed to use it?" Are we talking about the Segway, or the iPad?
  - teye 17y ago
    The obvious? I side with pg. "Too lazy to walk, ya fuckin homo?" http://www.paulgraham.com/segway.html http://www.paulgraham.com/segway.html
    - jordyhoyt 17y ago
      That's... not exactly a quote, now is it?
      - akgerber 17y ago
        It should have been written "'Too lazy to walk, ya fuckin' homo?'" Although I'm not entirely sure of his conclusion that bike-like styling would be a solution to this problem. Plenty of us get the occasional homophobic insults from jagoff motorists. On that topic, I think another reason the Segway wasn't very successful is that it has few compelling advantages over a $300 bike-- it has the same speed, has a lower range and is harder to refuel, doesn't fit in that well with existing infrastructure, and doesn't get you exercise. The only upside I can think of is that, because you aren't exercising, you don't sweat (slow down riding your bike or take a shower!) and that it's high-tech.
hvs 17y ago
Holy crap, the Segway was released eight years ago.. I feel old.
brown9-2 17y ago
Is the rest of the book this good?
- 9oliYQjP 17y ago
  I read it back in 2003 I believe, just after I got into Macs and got really interested in studying about Steve Jobs. It was an entertaining read for sure. Nothing spectacular but this particular chapter is the one that stands out to me after all these years.
marknutter 17y ago
I don't want to sound cocky, but I could have saved Dean a lot of grief and time if I had the chance before he launched the segway. The reason the segway failed is because people look like fucking dorks when they ride them. I'm surprised Jobs didn't make that remark (maybe thats what he meant when he was criticizing the design). When they revealed it on the Today show they had people riding around on them with bike helmets, sweater vests, and bowties. I've ridden one, mind you, and it is an incredible machine.. but I wouldn't be caught dead riding one of those things in public. There's a reason Jobe rides one in Arrested Development. For all Dean's smarts, it was his inability to connect with the every day person that caused the flop. Never underestimate the power of cool.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  The reason the segway failed is because people look like fucking dorks when they ride them. Congratulations, you just killed the bicycle! It's more than just looking like a dork... it's the image of laziness that you get from riding a Segway. The thing is useless for travelling anywhere you couldn't otherwise walk. It's fine in limited situations where one would have to walk a beat all day, or travel around a large factory floor, but most of us will never have to do that.
- JabavuAdams 17y ago
  The Segway needs a seat -- the whole idea is wrong. The cool kids slouch or lounge, because they're at ease (or faking it). ... or instead of feet side-by-side you go for one foot ahead, one back like a skater.
- grinich 17y ago
  Have you rode one before? If not, I highly suggest you try it. The control system feels so natural. It's like a motorcycle on your feet.
  - chadgeidel 17y ago
    I've never ridden a Segway (although I certainly would like to) but having owned motorcycles for over 15 years (mostly sport bikes), I'm having a hard time understanding this analogy. To be fair - I've used a similar analogy for a modern sportbike. "It's like running really fast" - most modern sportbikes are so compact that they aren't anywhere in your field of vision.
proee 17y ago
I think the movie "Mall Cop" sums up the Ginger demographic nicely.
shadowsun7 17y ago
I found this illuminating. Are there any other accounts of Jobs in action? He's very direct here, and to-the-point, and just so sure of what's right, and what's not.
Robbinsmith 17y ago
Really it is very strange but it is true what we can do in this it http://mls.fastrealestate.ne http://mls.fastrealestate.ne -------------------------------------------------------------- Robbin Smith
revorad 17y ago
The problem with the Segway is that it is too slow for a motorised vehicle. Even though it moves a lot faster than walking, I bet it feels really slow because you're not doing anything else while riding it. If I'm not exerting physical effort to move, I want the damn thing to move fast. Unlike with a bicycle or car, there is no link between what you are doing and your speed. Maybe they should add some kind of stepper thing which speeds up the thing. So, old people can just cruise at the base speed and others can step up the speed.
jbeard 17y ago
The book, "Code Name Ginger" is actually great. It's a complete 180 from the Steve Blank model of Customer Development and is a good reminder of how great teams can create the biggest craters.

106 points by jasonlbaptiste 17y ago

Oldie, but goodie.

"Not a good reason, in Jobs's view, because the code could easily be reverse-engineered. No it couldn't, said Tim. Could, said Jobs." I don't know where Jobs gets his instincts about this stuff, but he was totally right: http://tlb.org/scooter.html http://tlb.org/scooter.html

roc 17y ago
It's easy: any code can easily be reverse- or re-engineered. In a world where people crack encryption schemes or write open-source drivers for hardware without any documentation or specifications to speak of -- for fun, mind you -- it's the height of either arrogance or ignorance to assume that something won't be re-created just because it's hard.
qq66 17y ago
I don't see any evidence that this is a "reverse engineering" of a Segway - it seems to be more of a "re-engineering" from scratch.
- InclinedPlane 17y ago
  Is there a practical difference?
  - qq66 17y ago
    Yes, a re-engineering cannot be prevented by the original company through secrecy, obfuscation, or legal threats.
tlrobinson 17y ago
And again: "We have a few things they can't get," said Dean. "Specialty components with only one source." "They'll figure out a way around that," said Jobs. "I've spent nine years looking," said Dean, "and I don't think so."

teye 17y ago

Awesome to read a detailed account of instant-on insight and tough questions from two giants. Steve's intolerance of business as usual is particularly inspiring.

nzmsv 17y ago
Really? I can't believe they missed the obvious: "You have a product so revolutionary, you'll have no problem selling it. The question is, are people going to be allowed to use it?" That's Segway's problem right there. Just because something is revolutionary, doesn't mean it will sell. These business giants made the exact same mistake we all make - assume other people will get as excited as we are.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  "You have a product so revolutionary, you'll have no problem selling it. The question is, are people going to be allowed to use it?" Are we talking about the Segway, or the iPad?
- teye 17y ago
  The obvious? I side with pg. "Too lazy to walk, ya fuckin homo?" http://www.paulgraham.com/segway.html http://www.paulgraham.com/segway.html
  - jordyhoyt 17y ago
    That's... not exactly a quote, now is it?
    - akgerber 17y ago
      It should have been written "'Too lazy to walk, ya fuckin' homo?'" Although I'm not entirely sure of his conclusion that bike-like styling would be a solution to this problem. Plenty of us get the occasional homophobic insults from jagoff motorists. On that topic, I think another reason the Segway wasn't very successful is that it has few compelling advantages over a $300 bike-- it has the same speed, has a lower range and is harder to refuel, doesn't fit in that well with existing infrastructure, and doesn't get you exercise. The only upside I can think of is that, because you aren't exercising, you don't sweat (slow down riding your bike or take a shower!) and that it's high-tech.

hvs 17y ago

Holy crap, the Segway was released eight years ago.. I feel old.

brown9-2 17y ago

Is the rest of the book this good?

9oliYQjP 17y ago
I read it back in 2003 I believe, just after I got into Macs and got really interested in studying about Steve Jobs. It was an entertaining read for sure. Nothing spectacular but this particular chapter is the one that stands out to me after all these years.

marknutter 17y ago

I don't want to sound cocky, but I could have saved Dean a lot of grief and time if I had the chance before he launched the segway. The reason the segway failed is because people look like fucking dorks when they ride them. I'm surprised Jobs didn't make that remark (maybe thats what he meant when he was criticizing the design). When they revealed it on the Today show they had people riding around on them with bike helmets, sweater vests, and bowties. I've ridden one, mind you, and it is an incredible machine.. but I wouldn't be caught dead riding one of those things in public. There's a reason Jobe rides one in Arrested Development. For all Dean's smarts, it was his inability to connect with the every day person that caused the flop. Never underestimate the power of cool.

CamperBob 17y ago
The reason the segway failed is because people look like fucking dorks when they ride them. Congratulations, you just killed the bicycle! It's more than just looking like a dork... it's the image of laziness that you get from riding a Segway. The thing is useless for travelling anywhere you couldn't otherwise walk. It's fine in limited situations where one would have to walk a beat all day, or travel around a large factory floor, but most of us will never have to do that.
JabavuAdams 17y ago
The Segway needs a seat -- the whole idea is wrong. The cool kids slouch or lounge, because they're at ease (or faking it). ... or instead of feet side-by-side you go for one foot ahead, one back like a skater.
grinich 17y ago
Have you rode one before? If not, I highly suggest you try it. The control system feels so natural. It's like a motorcycle on your feet.
- chadgeidel 17y ago
  I've never ridden a Segway (although I certainly would like to) but having owned motorcycles for over 15 years (mostly sport bikes), I'm having a hard time understanding this analogy. To be fair - I've used a similar analogy for a modern sportbike. "It's like running really fast" - most modern sportbikes are so compact that they aren't anywhere in your field of vision.

proee 17y ago

I think the movie "Mall Cop" sums up the Ginger demographic nicely.

shadowsun7 17y ago

I found this illuminating. Are there any other accounts of Jobs in action? He's very direct here, and to-the-point, and just so sure of what's right, and what's not.

Robbinsmith 17y ago

Really it is very strange but it is true what we can do in this it http://mls.fastrealestate.ne http://mls.fastrealestate.ne -------------------------------------------------------------- Robbin Smith

revorad 17y ago

The problem with the Segway is that it is too slow for a motorised vehicle. Even though it moves a lot faster than walking, I bet it feels really slow because you're not doing anything else while riding it. If I'm not exerting physical effort to move, I want the damn thing to move fast. Unlike with a bicycle or car, there is no link between what you are doing and your speed. Maybe they should add some kind of stepper thing which speeds up the thing. So, old people can just cruise at the base speed and others can step up the speed.

jbeard 17y ago

The book, "Code Name Ginger" is actually great. It's a complete 180 from the Steve Blank model of Customer Development and is a good reminder of how great teams can create the biggest craters.