3 ms·

It doesn't sound like either of us is going to convince the other of anything. I think what you can see from a moving car, especially from an elevated freeway,

by enf 17y ago

It doesn't sound like either of us is going to convince the other of anything. I think what you can see from a moving car, especially from an elevated freeway, is irrelevant to understanding what life is like in the city, because the essence of city life is the pedestrian experience. That said, there are plenty of important streets that people take to work in the South Bay that are also residential -- University Avenue, Embarcadero Road, Alma Street, Charleston Road, and so on. What makes the experience of these streets from a car less informative about the South Bay than the experience of Mission Street from a car is about San Francisco?

anamax 17y ago
> That said, there are plenty of important streets that people take to work in the South Bay that are also residential -- University Avenue, Embarcadero Road, Alma Street, Charleston Road, and so on. What makes the experience of these streets from a car less informative about the South Bay than the experience of Mission Street from a car is about San Francisco? That's an interesting collection of suburb streets because they're counter-examples to the claims made by urbanites about suburbs. (With the exception of University, they have restaurants, grocery stores, and so on within walking distance. Since University goes through downtown PA, one might guess that there's a grocery store within a block or two - which there is.) I assumed that the urbanites making those claims were making them out of ignorance. If those are streets that they experience, my assumption is wrong. > What makes the experience of these streets from a car less informative about the South Bay than the experience of Mission Street from a car is about San Francisco? I can see that the houses are packed close together, where there are houses. I can see the apartments. I can see the street life. Note that most workers experience some aspects of the pedestrian life at lunch. They walk by the restaurants, the neighborhood grocery stores, and nightclubs. Not everyone thinks that having a couple of nightclubs within walking distance is a good thing. If you do, great - you should live near them. My point is that there's nothing wrong with someone else having different priorities.
- enf 17y ago
  OK, it sounds like we may be in violent agreement then. University Avenue is a good place and the only trouble is that places like it are too few and too far apart.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > University Avenue is a good place and the only trouble is that places like it are too few and too far apart. What's your basis for "too few and too far apart"? All of "suburb" SF Bay Peninsula has grocery stores and neighborhood restaurants within 20 minutes walking from residences. (The rural areas, Woodside, Portola Valley, the Santa Cruz mountains, Ladera, etc. don't.) The same is true of the Sacramento valley towns that I know, Davis, Sacramento, Woodland, Roseville. That's why I asked where these "grocery stores are miles away" suburbs are. Downtown PA is arguably the worst (on the Peninsula) when it comes to grocery access by foot because its store is Whole Foods. (Atherton may be as bad. I don't know about Monte Sereno.)
    - enf 17y ago
      The conventional wisdom is that people are generally willing to walk about 5 minutes. I think that is probably a little too low, but I don't believe people will generally walk 20 minutes (1 mile) except in the most interesting of places. In the case of Palo Alto, Santa Cruz Avenue in Menlo Park is 1.3 miles away. I have walked there once but am unlikely to ever do it again. In the other direction, California Avenue is 1.5 miles away, and then after that it's another 4 miles to Castro Street. People are certainly capable of walking these distances but I don't believe that they actually do.
      - anamax 17y ago
        > I think that is probably a little too low, but I don't believe people will generally walk 20 minutes (1 mile) That may be, but you get to argue that detail with the folks above. (We can then get out a map and see how much of the Peninsula qualifies.) > In the case of Palo Alto, Santa Cruz Avenue in Menlo Park is 1.3 miles away. So what? There are closer restaurants and grocery stores. (It's not possible to have everything within 1 mile, or even 10 miles.) The requirement was that "a grocery store and restaurants within walking distance". Peninsula cities satisfy that requirement, even though, like everywhere else, there are restaurants and grocery stores that aren't within that distance. For example, no one would argue that SF doesn't have restaurants within walking distance of most residences even though most SF residences are not within walking distance of Zuma.

by enf 17y ago

anamax 17y ago

> That said, there are plenty of important streets that people take to work in the South Bay that are also residential -- University Avenue, Embarcadero Road, Alma Street, Charleston Road, and so on. What makes the experience of these streets from a car less informative about the South Bay than the experience of Mission Street from a car is about San Francisco? That's an interesting collection of suburb streets because they're counter-examples to the claims made by urbanites about suburbs. (With the exception of University, they have restaurants, grocery stores, and so on within walking distance. Since University goes through downtown PA, one might guess that there's a grocery store within a block or two - which there is.) I assumed that the urbanites making those claims were making them out of ignorance. If those are streets that they experience, my assumption is wrong. > What makes the experience of these streets from a car less informative about the South Bay than the experience of Mission Street from a car is about San Francisco? I can see that the houses are packed close together, where there are houses. I can see the apartments. I can see the street life. Note that most workers experience some aspects of the pedestrian life at lunch. They walk by the restaurants, the neighborhood grocery stores, and nightclubs. Not everyone thinks that having a couple of nightclubs within walking distance is a good thing. If you do, great - you should live near them. My point is that there's nothing wrong with someone else having different priorities.

enf 17y ago
OK, it sounds like we may be in violent agreement then. University Avenue is a good place and the only trouble is that places like it are too few and too far apart.
- anamax 17y ago
  > University Avenue is a good place and the only trouble is that places like it are too few and too far apart. What's your basis for "too few and too far apart"? All of "suburb" SF Bay Peninsula has grocery stores and neighborhood restaurants within 20 minutes walking from residences. (The rural areas, Woodside, Portola Valley, the Santa Cruz mountains, Ladera, etc. don't.) The same is true of the Sacramento valley towns that I know, Davis, Sacramento, Woodland, Roseville. That's why I asked where these "grocery stores are miles away" suburbs are. Downtown PA is arguably the worst (on the Peninsula) when it comes to grocery access by foot because its store is Whole Foods. (Atherton may be as bad. I don't know about Monte Sereno.)
  - enf 17y ago
    The conventional wisdom is that people are generally willing to walk about 5 minutes. I think that is probably a little too low, but I don't believe people will generally walk 20 minutes (1 mile) except in the most interesting of places. In the case of Palo Alto, Santa Cruz Avenue in Menlo Park is 1.3 miles away. I have walked there once but am unlikely to ever do it again. In the other direction, California Avenue is 1.5 miles away, and then after that it's another 4 miles to Castro Street. People are certainly capable of walking these distances but I don't believe that they actually do.
    - anamax 17y ago
      > I think that is probably a little too low, but I don't believe people will generally walk 20 minutes (1 mile) That may be, but you get to argue that detail with the folks above. (We can then get out a map and see how much of the Peninsula qualifies.) > In the case of Palo Alto, Santa Cruz Avenue in Menlo Park is 1.3 miles away. So what? There are closer restaurants and grocery stores. (It's not possible to have everything within 1 mile, or even 10 miles.) The requirement was that "a grocery store and restaurants within walking distance". Peninsula cities satisfy that requirement, even though, like everywhere else, there are restaurants and grocery stores that aren't within that distance. For example, no one would argue that SF doesn't have restaurants within walking distance of most residences even though most SF residences are not within walking distance of Zuma.