4 ms·

Again you are misrepresenting my position; it's not that "sex work" is somehow more immoral than other work, it's that the purchase of sex is immoral, shameful,

Again you are misrepresenting my position; it's not that "sex work" is somehow more immoral than other work, it's that the purchase of sex is immoral, shameful, and frankly, pathetic. It has nothing to do with capitalism vs. anarchism or anything else. Even under capitalism, purchasing e.g. food for your family that was somehow acquired under coercive circumstances is still less shameful than purchasing e.g. diamonds that were somehow acquired under coercive circumstances. What you're purchasing matters; it's not all the same.

vertex-four 10y ago
Assuming you own a TV - the purchase of your television was immoral, shameful, and pathetic - you bought into the incredibly poor working conditions of various mines in developing countries, coercive labour in China, and more. And yet you bought it for entertainment. If you don't own a TV, I'm reasonably sure I could pick out something else you've done that involved coerced labour that you didn't need to. The solution is to get rid of the system which is coercive. It's not to tell everybody who ever wanted to buy a television not to within the context of capitalism.
- empthought 10y ago
  No, the purchase of a television is less immoral, shameful, and pathetic than the purchase of sex. It is qualitatively different. There is nothing inherent in my possession of a television that demeans or degrades another human being; it's simple circumstance that makes working conditions more or less morally acceptable. The purchase of sex inherently demeans and degrades another human being because it places one's own sexual gratification over another person's bodily autonomy.
  - croon 10y ago
    > The purchase of sex inherently demeans and degrades another human being because it places one's own sexual gratification over another person's bodily autonomy. I'm a contractor, and I get to choose my clients. If I don't want to work with someone, I don't. Why would it be "inherently" demeaning in sex work, if they got to choose their clients and there were better protection and regulation? Why is it an implementation issue with your TV purchase, and an inherent issue with sex work? I don't follow the logic.
    - empthought 10y ago
      HN comments really don't do justice to the answer to this question, please consider http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0009/000913/091355mb.pdf http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0009/000913/091355mb.pdf TL;DR no prostitute can "choose" a john that isn't going to sexually exploit her (and thus violate her human rights) because that's the nature of purchasing sex. A direct quote TL;DR Does the 'right to prostitute' exist?' Clearly prostitution cannot exist as a right because it usurps and negates already established human rights of the prostitute woman to human dignity, bodily integrity, physical and mental well-being...Human rights are universal and inalienable. They cannot be reduced to the instrumentality of individual choice alone because individual choice can and does include the right to harm or propagate harm on others or inflict harm on oneself.
      - croon 10y ago
        You're arguing on the premise that someone can dictate someone elses values on human rights. Which I would argue is a worse violation.
        empthought 10y ago
        OK, in that case we had no right to prosecute the Holocaust, and saying that we did is a worse violation than the Holocaust...
        croon 10y ago
        Wait, what? You honestly went with Godwin's law on this? There are people in the sex industry who enjoy their industry. There were no people on the receiving end of the holocaust who enjoyed that. If you can't grasp the difference you should not try to discuss anything.
        empthought 10y ago
        The question was whether to "dictate someone elses values on human rights" consists a worse violation than the human rights violation itself; it's pretty obvious the answer is "no." In fact the entire concept of human rights relies on there being some possibility of an objective standard of "human rights" that does not depend on an individual's choice or opinion, even if that individual's choice or opinion biases them to permit the violation of their own human rights. You think prostitution is not a violation of human rights. I do. It's pretty much that simple. But clearly what specific individuals used to think about freedom from slavery, or the right of Jewish people to exist, or the right to basic dignity and access to food and livelihood, has no bearing on whether or not these things are human rights. They just are.
cholantesh 10y ago
>it's not that "sex work" is somehow more immoral than other work, it's that the purchase of sex is immoral, shameful, and frankly, pathetic It's morally acceptable to sell a service but not to purchase it? That's asinine.
- empthought 10y ago
  "It's morally acceptable to be a slave but not to own one? That's asinine." The "economic transaction" model is in almost all cases a fig leaf for the abuse of women, even in jurisdictions where prostitution has been legalized or decriminalized.
  - cholantesh 10y ago
    You aren't purchasing the person and agency of a person when you engage the services of a sex worker, and it isn't yet established that sex work is inherently abusive. Miles of digital ink wasted on just-so stories do not suffice for evidence.
    - empthought 10y ago
      http://www.spinifexpress.com.au/Bookstore/book/id=285/ http://www.spinifexpress.com.au/Bookstore/book/id=285/ http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/i-clutched-the-cash-while-he-used-me-former-prostitutes-on-why-they-want-the-industry-banned/news-story/59aa0a6355f12324810a73ed76bc9934 http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/i-clutche... http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdf/Prostitutionin9Countries.pdf http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdf/Prostitutionin9Count... "Just-so stories," k bud. Tell yourself whatever lies you need to in order to condone johns and pimps; I can't stop you.
      - cholantesh 10y ago
        The vast majority of your posts in this thread are variants on "You hate women, you cryptofascist". When presented with a lengthy rebuttal of your claims that cited a UN report on white slavery, your only rejoinder was to continue in this vein. Methinks you care less about the dignity and safety of women and more about feeling like a martyr.

vertex-four 10y ago

Assuming you own a TV - the purchase of your television was immoral, shameful, and pathetic - you bought into the incredibly poor working conditions of various mines in developing countries, coercive labour in China, and more. And yet you bought it for entertainment. If you don't own a TV, I'm reasonably sure I could pick out something else you've done that involved coerced labour that you didn't need to. The solution is to get rid of the system which is coercive. It's not to tell everybody who ever wanted to buy a television not to within the context of capitalism.

empthought 10y ago
No, the purchase of a television is less immoral, shameful, and pathetic than the purchase of sex. It is qualitatively different. There is nothing inherent in my possession of a television that demeans or degrades another human being; it's simple circumstance that makes working conditions more or less morally acceptable. The purchase of sex inherently demeans and degrades another human being because it places one's own sexual gratification over another person's bodily autonomy.
- croon 10y ago
  > The purchase of sex inherently demeans and degrades another human being because it places one's own sexual gratification over another person's bodily autonomy. I'm a contractor, and I get to choose my clients. If I don't want to work with someone, I don't. Why would it be "inherently" demeaning in sex work, if they got to choose their clients and there were better protection and regulation? Why is it an implementation issue with your TV purchase, and an inherent issue with sex work? I don't follow the logic.
  - empthought 10y ago
    HN comments really don't do justice to the answer to this question, please consider http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0009/000913/091355mb.pdf http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0009/000913/091355mb.pdf TL;DR no prostitute can "choose" a john that isn't going to sexually exploit her (and thus violate her human rights) because that's the nature of purchasing sex. A direct quote TL;DR Does the 'right to prostitute' exist?' Clearly prostitution cannot exist as a right because it usurps and negates already established human rights of the prostitute woman to human dignity, bodily integrity, physical and mental well-being...Human rights are universal and inalienable. They cannot be reduced to the instrumentality of individual choice alone because individual choice can and does include the right to harm or propagate harm on others or inflict harm on oneself.
    - croon 10y ago
      You're arguing on the premise that someone can dictate someone elses values on human rights. Which I would argue is a worse violation.
      - empthought 10y ago
        OK, in that case we had no right to prosecute the Holocaust, and saying that we did is a worse violation than the Holocaust...
        croon 10y ago
        Wait, what? You honestly went with Godwin's law on this? There are people in the sex industry who enjoy their industry. There were no people on the receiving end of the holocaust who enjoyed that. If you can't grasp the difference you should not try to discuss anything.
        empthought 10y ago
        The question was whether to "dictate someone elses values on human rights" consists a worse violation than the human rights violation itself; it's pretty obvious the answer is "no." In fact the entire concept of human rights relies on there being some possibility of an objective standard of "human rights" that does not depend on an individual's choice or opinion, even if that individual's choice or opinion biases them to permit the violation of their own human rights. You think prostitution is not a violation of human rights. I do. It's pretty much that simple. But clearly what specific individuals used to think about freedom from slavery, or the right of Jewish people to exist, or the right to basic dignity and access to food and livelihood, has no bearing on whether or not these things are human rights. They just are.

cholantesh 10y ago

>it's not that "sex work" is somehow more immoral than other work, it's that the purchase of sex is immoral, shameful, and frankly, pathetic It's morally acceptable to sell a service but not to purchase it? That's asinine.

empthought 10y ago
"It's morally acceptable to be a slave but not to own one? That's asinine." The "economic transaction" model is in almost all cases a fig leaf for the abuse of women, even in jurisdictions where prostitution has been legalized or decriminalized.
- cholantesh 10y ago
  You aren't purchasing the person and agency of a person when you engage the services of a sex worker, and it isn't yet established that sex work is inherently abusive. Miles of digital ink wasted on just-so stories do not suffice for evidence.
  - empthought 10y ago
    http://www.spinifexpress.com.au/Bookstore/book/id=285/ http://www.spinifexpress.com.au/Bookstore/book/id=285/ http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/i-clutched-the-cash-while-he-used-me-former-prostitutes-on-why-they-want-the-industry-banned/news-story/59aa0a6355f12324810a73ed76bc9934 http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/i-clutche... http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdf/Prostitutionin9Countries.pdf http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdf/Prostitutionin9Count... "Just-so stories," k bud. Tell yourself whatever lies you need to in order to condone johns and pimps; I can't stop you.
    - cholantesh 10y ago
      The vast majority of your posts in this thread are variants on "You hate women, you cryptofascist". When presented with a lengthy rebuttal of your claims that cited a UN report on white slavery, your only rejoinder was to continue in this vein. Methinks you care less about the dignity and safety of women and more about feeling like a martyr.