6 ms·
Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. (Community service is an alternative to jail, for example.) Coerced sex is rape, however. It is qualitatively different f
by empthought 10y ago
Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. (Community service is an alternative to jail, for example.)
Coerced sex is rape, however. It is qualitatively different from coerced labor. As Dworkin wrote a long time ago, "in prostitution, no woman stays whole. It is impossible to use a human body in the way women's bodies are used in prostitution and to have a whole human being at the end of it, or in the middle of it, or close to the beginning of it. It's impossible. And no woman gets whole again later, after."
- barrkel 10y agoIt's condescending to women to tell them that what they choose to do with their bodies is not their free choice. It's deeply patronising and actually an anti female argument. I think the actual moral problem with commercial sex is that it commodifies something that some people see as sacred. I think it turns on one's view of government as moral guardian vs individual liberty. Governments aren't usually very good moral actors, which is why we usually limit their moral policing.
- empthought 10y agoIf it was their free choice, they wouldn't need to be paid for it, and they could be as selective or as indiscriminate as they like with partner selection and frequency. It's not about anything sacred (unless you consider basic human rights sacred, I guess). But don't take my word for it, take former sex workers' word for it: http://www.educating-voices.com http://www.educating-voices.com This is feminism 101 stuff; even if you want to take the "choice feminism" side of the debate, you need to learn the basics of radical feminist critiques and positions on the issue.
- barrkel 10y agoYour argument hinges on the idea that exchange is inherently coercive. I don't buy it.
- empthought 10y agoNo, my argument hinges on the idea that exchanges of money for sex are inherently coercive -- or at least almost always coercive in practice -- because they are. Other exchanges are not relevant.
- barrkel 10y agoTo remind you, this is what you said: "If it was their free choice, they wouldn't need to be paid for it". This means that monetary exchange precludes free choice. This is independent of what is being exchanged, as you say it.
- empthought 10y agoNo, it means that if sex were their free choice, they would not need to be paid for sex (they could have it as much or as little as they like). Instead of trying to wordplay this in HN comments, why don't you take a look at https://www.demandabolition.org/resources/evidence-against-legalizing-prostitution/ https://www.demandabolition.org/resources/evidence-against-l... -- they've done a far better job than I ever could on lining up the different arguments -- and there are many! -- against blithely skipping into legalized or even decriminalized prostitution. If none stick, then certainly nothing I say in this discussion will have any effect.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- barrkel 10y agoIf selling fruit was the shopkeeper's free choice, they would not need to be paid for fruit. This sentence has structurally the same form. If you think it's ridiculous, it can only be because you think there is something special about sex - i.e. it is sacred in some way. And thus your position actually doesn't relate to free will. I think you're very confused. Your statements aren't logically consistent and I have to make guesses and leaps of dodgy inference to make any sense of them at all. I believe you have a prior position on the morality of prostitution and are using arguments you don't understand to defend the position. I think a different tack would be wiser.
- vidarh 10y ago> If it was their free choice, they wouldn't need to be paid for it, By this argument, paid work is slavery.
- Singletoned 10y agoOut of interest, what about male prostitution? Is it possible for a man to be paid for sex "and to have a whole human being at the end of it"?
- empthought 10y agoI don't know. Probably not. I suppose in a society where women were free of patriarchy and rape culture, and had full reproductive and sexual autonomy, then Dworkin's statement wouldn't even apply to women. But that society is a fantasy, and I doubt any capitalist society could ever free women from economic exploitation of their bodies by others.