15 ms·

Paul Graham on newLISP, 12 years ago: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/257#comment-1889 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/257#comment-1889 With hindsight,

by jurip 10y ago

Paul Graham on newLISP, 12 years ago: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/257#comment-1889 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/257#comment-1889 With hindsight, turns out that none of newLISP, Goo or Arc set the world on fire.

ghayes 10y ago
Yet, functional programming is an in vogue as ever.
- Semiapies 10y ago
  It's perpetually going to be huge Real Soon Now.
  - __s 10y ago
    It's as huge as it is adopted by new C# features
    - ska 10y ago
      That's just the latest in a long list of languages. This is a process that has been going on for nearly as long as lisp has existed - so nearly as long as people have been programming.
- barrkel 10y ago
  The kinds of things PG was promoting were call/cc for web interaction flows and macros to create a DSL for the application. These are heavily Lispy ideas and not hugely functional.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    He wasn't promoting call/cc. I know he wasn't because neither CL nor arc actually support the construct.
    - wtetzner 10y ago
      Though the runtime arc is built on does support call/cc.
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        one of the runtimes. And it doesn't, not really, not anymore. It does support delimited continuations, but those are different.
        wtetzner 10y ago
        I'm quite sure Racket still supports call/cc. https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fmore-scheme..rkt%29._call%2Fcc%29%29 https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html#%28def._%28...
- lispyals12 10y ago
  Yeah lucky for us there're ways to do FP that don't require writing our code in autistic, AST lisp style.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    You don't like Lisp? That's fine. There will always be people that don't. They'd get used to it if they tried it, IMHO, but that's their choice. But leave autism out of it. Some of my best friends and family are on the spectrum, and they don't deserve having their condition turned into an insult on a web forum. Furthermore, you make yourself look immature by using it as an insult. I know people in their 20s who can't go to college because of their disability: It's not funny.
    - lispyals12 10y ago
      It may be an arguably insensitive word-choice, but I wasn't making fun of anyone with a disability. I was using the word 'autistic' to describe the nature of the lisp style of languages. There's not really a good alternative word. Did not mean to offend, and there was no attempt at humor there.
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        There are many good alternative words. In fact, given how wide the spectrum of autistism is, it's not really very desriptive of what you mean (actually, what do you mean?) Glad to hear that you didn't mean to offend. But you wouldn't call something you didn't like "gay," or "jewish." So why autistic?
        lispyals12 10y ago
        Not the same thing. I was actually using the meaning of the word. (See 2.) [1]. Some people are fine with this usage of the word, some aren't. [1] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/autistic?s=t http://www.dictionary.com/browse/autistic?s=t
keyle 10y ago
I genuinely would love to see apps written in lisp. It's all Javascript nowadays, with about 5-8 frameworks dominating this sad landscape. Imagine how refreshing it'd be to see Lisp driving webapps, front and back-end. Not even saying that should be the one size fits all, I'm saying, anything else...
- shakna 10y ago
  Netscape had originally planned to use Scheme as their scripting engine. But then Java took off and they wanted something that looked similar... So we ended up with a ten day hack.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Eich ascribed the result less to internal Netscape politics and more to the Scheme interpreter taking longer to implement than expected and there needing to be some scripting language in the browser that shipped - it was either JS or something that he described as being very like PHP avant la lettre. IIRC this happened in comments on jwz's blog - cite on request, though you'll have to excuse me for waiting until i'm back at a machine with a keyboard and a big display before I go hunting it down again.
    - zeveb 10y ago
      It's really hard to believe that implementing a Scheme or Lisp would be slower than implementing JavaScript, so I would indeed be interested in your cite. My recollection is that Eich's bosses wanted something that looked like CJava++.
      - throwanem 10y ago
        See your sibling comment (if you haven't already).
        zeveb 10y ago
        Hmmm, I guess my takeaway from that is that it had to look like C, and that iron constraint combined with the time pressure to mean that good features from Scheme were left out, not that implementing JavaScript rather than Scheme was due to time pressure.
isaiahg 10y ago
I love Lisp and I'd use it for everything if I could. But the Lisp community spends too much time talking about how awesome it is instead of making good frameworks that anyone can use, even kids just out of college. It doesn't matter how beautifully made your project is. New programmers make trends. If the framework can't be picked up and run without spending years in the Lisp community it won't take off. Look at Clojure. They offered the kids that started with Java something new but with a flair that was familiar. If you know Java, Clojure isn't too hard.
- justinhj 10y ago
  But clojure is also a lisp unless you are using lisp to mean Common Lisp only?
  - na85 10y ago
    Comments like this are why I hate discussing Lisp. Nobody cares except language zealots.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      Yes we do. Language matters. If you can't say what you mean precisely, in a way that everyone can understand, than you've got a problem.
      - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        "Be conservative in what you emit, and liberal in what you accept" (or words to that effect). Say what you mean precisely. But if you can't tolerate less than precise language from others, then you have a problem. It's your problem. Yes, they should speak more precisely, but you need to learn to live in the world we've got, not the one you wish we have. That means dealing with the people we've got, not the people you wish we had.
        qwertyuiop924 10y ago

by jurip 10y ago

ghayes 10y ago

Yet, functional programming is an in vogue as ever.

Semiapies 10y ago
It's perpetually going to be huge Real Soon Now.
- __s 10y ago
  It's as huge as it is adopted by new C# features
  - ska 10y ago
    That's just the latest in a long list of languages. This is a process that has been going on for nearly as long as lisp has existed - so nearly as long as people have been programming.
barrkel 10y ago
The kinds of things PG was promoting were call/cc for web interaction flows and macros to create a DSL for the application. These are heavily Lispy ideas and not hugely functional.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  He wasn't promoting call/cc. I know he wasn't because neither CL nor arc actually support the construct.
  - wtetzner 10y ago
    Though the runtime arc is built on does support call/cc.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      one of the runtimes. And it doesn't, not really, not anymore. It does support delimited continuations, but those are different.
      - wtetzner 10y ago
        I'm quite sure Racket still supports call/cc. https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fmore-scheme..rkt%29._call%2Fcc%29%29 https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html#%28def._%28...
lispyals12 10y ago
Yeah lucky for us there're ways to do FP that don't require writing our code in autistic, AST lisp style.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  You don't like Lisp? That's fine. There will always be people that don't. They'd get used to it if they tried it, IMHO, but that's their choice. But leave autism out of it. Some of my best friends and family are on the spectrum, and they don't deserve having their condition turned into an insult on a web forum. Furthermore, you make yourself look immature by using it as an insult. I know people in their 20s who can't go to college because of their disability: It's not funny.
  - lispyals12 10y ago
    It may be an arguably insensitive word-choice, but I wasn't making fun of anyone with a disability. I was using the word 'autistic' to describe the nature of the lisp style of languages. There's not really a good alternative word. Did not mean to offend, and there was no attempt at humor there.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      There are many good alternative words. In fact, given how wide the spectrum of autistism is, it's not really very desriptive of what you mean (actually, what do you mean?) Glad to hear that you didn't mean to offend. But you wouldn't call something you didn't like "gay," or "jewish." So why autistic?
      - lispyals12 10y ago
        Not the same thing. I was actually using the meaning of the word. (See 2.) [1]. Some people are fine with this usage of the word, some aren't. [1] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/autistic?s=t http://www.dictionary.com/browse/autistic?s=t

keyle 10y ago

I genuinely would love to see apps written in lisp. It's all Javascript nowadays, with about 5-8 frameworks dominating this sad landscape. Imagine how refreshing it'd be to see Lisp driving webapps, front and back-end. Not even saying that should be the one size fits all, I'm saying, anything else...

shakna 10y ago
Netscape had originally planned to use Scheme as their scripting engine. But then Java took off and they wanted something that looked similar... So we ended up with a ten day hack.
- throwanem 10y ago
  Eich ascribed the result less to internal Netscape politics and more to the Scheme interpreter taking longer to implement than expected and there needing to be some scripting language in the browser that shipped - it was either JS or something that he described as being very like PHP avant la lettre. IIRC this happened in comments on jwz's blog - cite on request, though you'll have to excuse me for waiting until i'm back at a machine with a keyboard and a big display before I go hunting it down again.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    It's really hard to believe that implementing a Scheme or Lisp would be slower than implementing JavaScript, so I would indeed be interested in your cite. My recollection is that Eich's bosses wanted something that looked like CJava++.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      See your sibling comment (if you haven't already).
      - zeveb 10y ago
        Hmmm, I guess my takeaway from that is that it had to look like C, and that iron constraint combined with the time pressure to mean that good features from Scheme were left out, not that implementing JavaScript rather than Scheme was due to time pressure.

isaiahg 10y ago

I love Lisp and I'd use it for everything if I could. But the Lisp community spends too much time talking about how awesome it is instead of making good frameworks that anyone can use, even kids just out of college. It doesn't matter how beautifully made your project is. New programmers make trends. If the framework can't be picked up and run without spending years in the Lisp community it won't take off. Look at Clojure. They offered the kids that started with Java something new but with a flair that was familiar. If you know Java, Clojure isn't too hard.

justinhj 10y ago
But clojure is also a lisp unless you are using lisp to mean Common Lisp only?
- na85 10y ago
  Comments like this are why I hate discussing Lisp. Nobody cares except language zealots.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    Yes we do. Language matters. If you can't say what you mean precisely, in a way that everyone can understand, than you've got a problem.
    - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
      "Be conservative in what you emit, and liberal in what you accept" (or words to that effect). Say what you mean precisely. But if you can't tolerate less than precise language from others, then you have a problem. It's your problem. Yes, they should speak more precisely, but you need to learn to live in the world we've got, not the one you wish we have. That means dealing with the people we've got, not the people you wish we had.
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago