6 ms·

A quick summary of this issue: - 'Dead' keys are keys used to modify the next character - The backtick / grave key behaved as such on a typewriter - ` + a =

A quick summary of this issue: - 'Dead' keys are keys used to modify the next character - The backtick / grave key behaved as such on a typewriter - ` + a = à - Noto web fonts behave like this - The latest Noto local fonts do not - The expected modern behaviour in English is ` + a -> `a - This is not necessarily the expected behaviour in other languages

foolong 10y ago
This is not related to the font.
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  Local font installed: http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png Web font: http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png See iverg's comment on the github issue: https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/issues/736 https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/issues/736 EDIT: To be clear, parent is technically correct. The problem is with the way "web fonts" is working, the actual 'font' is the same across both, just the web fonts are having fun.
shawnz 10y ago
> This is not necessarily the expected behaviour in other languages But isn't it normally the operating system's responsibility to implement this, depending on the keyboard layout?
- coldpie 10y ago
  Operating system? Buddy, this is web development. We're reinventing the whole stack on top of HTML and JavaScript. Welcome to the future.
- OJFord 10y ago
  > But isn't it normally the operating system's > responsibility to implement this Presumably the font has backticks, but they're (poorly) implementing this method of accenting in the demo web app to allow people to search for accented characters?
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    Nope. It looks like "web fonts" in general are poorly implemented. You can recreate the problem with just a text box and font styling CSS. If you look at some of my other comments in this tree you will see screenshots of the same text box with and without the local fonts installed. Presumably when local fonts are installed the OS handles everything, without the browser and the noto-fonts definition file gets in the way.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Noto web fonts behave like this Dear god why? They're Unicode fonts. There are perfectly good Unicode combining characters that can be used when this behavior is intended. Making non-combining characters behave like combining characters breaks all kinds of text.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
GnarlyWhale 10y ago
Aside, I can't believe I never realized that was the intended use of the grave key.
oelmekki 10y ago
> This is not necessarily the expected behaviour in other languages Which language, for example? I'm french, we have characters with grave accent ('à', 'è' and 'ù'), and we do not expect the "` + a = à" behavior, as for one language. EDIT: we do expect that "^ + a = â", though, but that's an other thing, and we have actually two ^ keys, one for our behavior and one for the usual behavior.
- fermuch 10y ago
  Brazilian Portuguese expects that behavior to write words such as "àqueles"
  - oelmekki 10y ago
    I see. Thanks!
  - wst_ 10y ago
    Forgive me, I don't want to sound xenophobic but this seems preposterous to me. So much energy wasted. I am deeply grateful to the guys who were developing keyboard standards in our country that I don't have to go through such waste. When we want to use "o" with accent we just press right ALT with "o". Simple and fast. Frankly speaking, this is first time I hear about such weird combination just to get local characters, in western countries ofc. PC keyboard is not mechanical one. Why someone would copy the same behavior is beyond me.
    - ubernostrum 10y ago
      I find it useful on a Mac to use some of the shortcuts for accents and diacritics in the default US-English keyboard layout, since I occasionally do have to type accented characters, or type text in a non-English language and don't want the hassle of changing keyboard setup or going through the Unicode menu. They all involve holding Option and pressing the key, though (for example, 'à' is Option-` followed by typing the 'a'; Option-e gets acute, Option-n gets tilde, Option-i gets circumflex and Option-u gets diaresis; there are also shortcuts for some common specific characters like ç and å).
viraptor 10y ago
What do you mean by "Noto web fonts behave like this"? Whether dead keys are enabled is a property of your system / input method. The standard en_us linux config does [alt+\] [a] = à instead for example. (unless you choose a keyboard layout)
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  That is what would make sense however that is not the case. I should have been clearer and used the term "package" after font: Local fonts package installed: http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png No Local fonts package installed: http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png
  - viraptor 10y ago
    That's weird. The package seems to include the ttf files only... https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/any/noto-fonts/ https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/any/noto-fonts/
    - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
      It is seemingly to do with how the "web fonts" are implemented by browsers. For more weirdness look here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12656642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12656642
barrkel 10y ago
It seems like you're confusing COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT and GRAVE ACCENT. These are two separate characters with distinct code points. One combines, the other does not. It's not a property of the font; it's a property of the characters. http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0060/index.htm http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0060/index.htm http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0300/index.htm http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0300/index.htm
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  Yes they are unique characters. I went to some pains to ensure I used the word 'key' as in physical switch on a keyboard. However I did not go far enough in ensuring I was referring to the font package as opposed to the font, please accept my apologies. It is the font package, look at iverg's comment on the github issue https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/issues/736 https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/issues/736 here are screenshots with local font installed http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png and without local font http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png EDIT: it goes deeper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12656642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12656642
the8472 10y ago
You are conflating keyboard layout, unicode codepoints and the font rendering of said codepoints. The issue here is that the non-combining accent (as generated by many keyboard layouts, dead keys or not) is rendered by the font as if it were combining. All the other aspects are tangential.

foolong 10y ago

This is not related to the font.

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
Local font installed: http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png Web font: http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png See iverg's comment on the github issue: https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/issues/736 https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/issues/736 EDIT: To be clear, parent is technically correct. The problem is with the way "web fonts" is working, the actual 'font' is the same across both, just the web fonts are having fun.

shawnz 10y ago

> This is not necessarily the expected behaviour in other languages But isn't it normally the operating system's responsibility to implement this, depending on the keyboard layout?

coldpie 10y ago
Operating system? Buddy, this is web development. We're reinventing the whole stack on top of HTML and JavaScript. Welcome to the future.
OJFord 10y ago
> But isn't it normally the operating system's > responsibility to implement this Presumably the font has backticks, but they're (poorly) implementing this method of accenting in the demo web app to allow people to search for accented characters?
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  Nope. It looks like "web fonts" in general are poorly implemented. You can recreate the problem with just a text box and font styling CSS. If you look at some of my other comments in this tree you will see screenshots of the same text box with and without the local fonts installed. Presumably when local fonts are installed the OS handles everything, without the browser and the noto-fonts definition file gets in the way.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Noto web fonts behave like this Dear god why? They're Unicode fonts. There are perfectly good Unicode combining characters that can be used when this behavior is intended. Making non-combining characters behave like combining characters breaks all kinds of text.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

GnarlyWhale 10y ago

Aside, I can't believe I never realized that was the intended use of the grave key.

oelmekki 10y ago

> This is not necessarily the expected behaviour in other languages Which language, for example? I'm french, we have characters with grave accent ('à', 'è' and 'ù'), and we do not expect the "` + a = à" behavior, as for one language. EDIT: we do expect that "^ + a = â", though, but that's an other thing, and we have actually two ^ keys, one for our behavior and one for the usual behavior.

fermuch 10y ago
Brazilian Portuguese expects that behavior to write words such as "àqueles"
- oelmekki 10y ago
  I see. Thanks!
- wst_ 10y ago
  Forgive me, I don't want to sound xenophobic but this seems preposterous to me. So much energy wasted. I am deeply grateful to the guys who were developing keyboard standards in our country that I don't have to go through such waste. When we want to use "o" with accent we just press right ALT with "o". Simple and fast. Frankly speaking, this is first time I hear about such weird combination just to get local characters, in western countries ofc. PC keyboard is not mechanical one. Why someone would copy the same behavior is beyond me.
  - ubernostrum 10y ago
    I find it useful on a Mac to use some of the shortcuts for accents and diacritics in the default US-English keyboard layout, since I occasionally do have to type accented characters, or type text in a non-English language and don't want the hassle of changing keyboard setup or going through the Unicode menu. They all involve holding Option and pressing the key, though (for example, 'à' is Option-` followed by typing the 'a'; Option-e gets acute, Option-n gets tilde, Option-i gets circumflex and Option-u gets diaresis; there are also shortcuts for some common specific characters like ç and å).

viraptor 10y ago

What do you mean by "Noto web fonts behave like this"? Whether dead keys are enabled is a property of your system / input method. The standard en_us linux config does [alt+\] [a] = à instead for example. (unless you choose a keyboard layout)

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
That is what would make sense however that is not the case. I should have been clearer and used the term "package" after font: Local fonts package installed: http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png No Local fonts package installed: http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png
- viraptor 10y ago
  That's weird. The package seems to include the ttf files only... https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/any/noto-fonts/ https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/any/noto-fonts/
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    It is seemingly to do with how the "web fonts" are implemented by browsers. For more weirdness look here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12656642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12656642

barrkel 10y ago

It seems like you're confusing COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT and GRAVE ACCENT. These are two separate characters with distinct code points. One combines, the other does not. It's not a property of the font; it's a property of the characters. http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0060/index.htm http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0060/index.htm http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0300/index.htm http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0300/index.htm

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
Yes they are unique characters. I went to some pains to ensure I used the word 'key' as in physical switch on a keyboard. However I did not go far enough in ensuring I was referring to the font package as opposed to the font, please accept my apologies. It is the font package, look at iverg's comment on the github issue https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/issues/736 https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/issues/736 here are screenshots with local font installed http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png http://i.imgur.com/ycRs3A0.png and without local font http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png http://i.imgur.com/TUKsIY4.png EDIT: it goes deeper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12656642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12656642

the8472 10y ago

You are conflating keyboard layout, unicode codepoints and the font rendering of said codepoints. The issue here is that the non-combining accent (as generated by many keyboard layouts, dead keys or not) is rendered by the font as if it were combining. All the other aspects are tangential.