2 ms·

Can we stop bad-mouthing CSS in developer talks, please

3 points by PretzelFisch 10y ago

gregjor 10y ago
I took the time to read your article. My thoughts: Programmers constantly trash and badmouth everything: languages, tools, platforms, frameworks. Name anything and there's a vocal group of people who hate it. Grow a thicker skin if you want to be taken seriously as a developer. Don't attach your ego or sense of worth or professionalism to a technology or tool -- those are transient things. If you take jokes or complaints (or ignorance) about CSS personally, as you seem to in your article, you're going to get defensive and feel attacked when they come up. Go to any seminar and you'll see the same jokes about HTML, Javascript, PHP, etc. Think of them as in-jokes and bonding, not as personal assaults on your choice of expertise. I think everyone who works in web development knows that CSS is capable of amazing things. I think most of us know that you can't expect CSS to wrap and fit an arbitrary text string into a fixed-sized container. We all know HTML and browsers have limitations and shortcomings that aren't always clear to print designers and clients looking at Photoshop wireframes. It's part of the job, not something to get wound up over.
- enkiv2 10y ago
  Programmers badmouth everything, because the state of programming languages is a horrifying trash fire and these things deserve to be badmouthed, in the hope that the same mistakes won't be made next time somebody builds a similar system. In other words, if somebody says "stop badmouthing [crappy tool]", it doesn't just mean they need a thicker skin, but that they value their arbitrary emotional connection to the tool over the ability for the world to improve. They would rather have a crappy system that nobody talks about than a good system.
  - gregjor 10y ago
    The same mistakes will be made. The state of software development will never be perfect until the bots take over. In the meantime it's sanest to stay reality-based and just deal with what we have. Complaining is mostly blowing off steam or showing off (as the author says, arrogance).
enkiv2 10y ago
His arguments here are really unconvincing. What, we should avoid pointing out the flaws in a broken tool just because a handful of people have managed to do something impressive with it? Whatever happened to the spirit of constructive criticism and general improvement?
- gregjor 10y ago
  When I see the nested <div> tags in modern web pages, mainly to support CSS, I really wonder, what was wrong with tables again?

3 points by PretzelFisch 10y ago

I took the time to read your article. My thoughts: Programmers constantly trash and badmouth everything: languages, tools, platforms, frameworks. Name anything and there's a vocal group of people who hate it. Grow a thicker skin if you want to be taken seriously as a developer. Don't attach your ego or sense of worth or professionalism to a technology or tool -- those are transient things. If you take jokes or complaints (or ignorance) about CSS personally, as you seem to in your article, you're going to get defensive and feel attacked when they come up. Go to any seminar and you'll see the same jokes about HTML, Javascript, PHP, etc. Think of them as in-jokes and bonding, not as personal assaults on your choice of expertise. I think everyone who works in web development knows that CSS is capable of amazing things. I think most of us know that you can't expect CSS to wrap and fit an arbitrary text string into a fixed-sized container. We all know HTML and browsers have limitations and shortcomings that aren't always clear to print designers and clients looking at Photoshop wireframes. It's part of the job, not something to get wound up over.

enkiv2 10y ago
Programmers badmouth everything, because the state of programming languages is a horrifying trash fire and these things deserve to be badmouthed, in the hope that the same mistakes won't be made next time somebody builds a similar system. In other words, if somebody says "stop badmouthing [crappy tool]", it doesn't just mean they need a thicker skin, but that they value their arbitrary emotional connection to the tool over the ability for the world to improve. They would rather have a crappy system that nobody talks about than a good system.
- gregjor 10y ago
  The same mistakes will be made. The state of software development will never be perfect until the bots take over. In the meantime it's sanest to stay reality-based and just deal with what we have. Complaining is mostly blowing off steam or showing off (as the author says, arrogance).

enkiv2 10y ago

His arguments here are really unconvincing. What, we should avoid pointing out the flaws in a broken tool just because a handful of people have managed to do something impressive with it? Whatever happened to the spirit of constructive criticism and general improvement?

gregjor 10y ago
When I see the nested <div> tags in modern web pages, mainly to support CSS, I really wonder, what was wrong with tables again?