8 ms·

And yet, people complain about how expensive an Apple computer is- when they are cheaper than ever. A fully loaded Macbook Pro with every option is still less t

by tibbon 10y ago

And yet, people complain about how expensive an Apple computer is- when they are cheaper than ever. A fully loaded Macbook Pro with every option is still less than the entry "business model" of any of these computers in 1980

jacquesm 10y ago
The first computers were built like tanks and typically were in use for a decade or more before being deprecated. That fully loaded Macbook Pro will be outdated before the ink of the advert is properly dried. It's a huge difference if you can deprecate an investment over a large number of years or if you're expected to buy something new every one or two years. Tablets and phones are even worse when it comes to aging.
- dangoor 10y ago
  I disagree. My father bought one of those TRS-80 Model IIIs in 1980, and I used it tons. By 1985, though, we had migrated over to a PC. Our Model III had been really decked out (even had a 5MB hard drive that we had gotten in a closeout deal). The difference between what you could do with a 1985 PC and a 1980 Model III was huge. In contrast, we have a 2009 MacBook Pro. Still works just fine for web browsing, word processing and things of that nature. Mobile phone hardware is moving super fast as desktop computers were in the '80s, but I think that the improvements in desktop (well, laptop is the equivalent today) hardware are less important for most people.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    When you migrate from one architecture to another it is kind of logical that you would get a new machine. The TRS-80 wasn't able to compete with the PC for very long (though in the beginning there was of course more software available for the TRS-80). But if you had stuck with the CP/M world you would have been able to run that old hardware for many years more. Note how you have relegated your 2009 MacBook Pro to 'web browsing, words processing and things of that nature', whereas as a developers machine it is likely quite underpowered. We are also at the end of the easy pickings from Moore's law so this too means that machine replacement pace is now (fortunately) finally dropping off a bit. But phones and tablets are basically an exercise in planned obsolescence and computers while they last a bit longer than in the past are still being replaced quite frequently. Your MacBook Pro is on it's 'second life', no longer in use for its primary purpose.
    - dangoor 10y ago
      My point was in relation to your comment about these old machines being in use for a decade whereas "That fully loaded Macbook Pro will be outdated before the ink of the advert is properly dried." I think that software developers and computer enthusiasts back then wanted to upgrade as often as they would now (though I might still argue that even for developers the pace is less today than it was back then). For your "average office worker" or "average home computer user", I'm guessing that their computer will serve them well for longer today with less clear incentive for upgrading. I mentioned the web browser, word processing and such because those are things that many non-developers commonly do with computers. That 2009 MacBook Pro would likely continue to serve a non-developer just fine and the only reason they might consider upgrading is that Mac OS Sierra doesn't support it. In short, I think desktop/laptop machine replacement pace started dropping off for most people years ago. In the 80s the performance and storage improvements were way more meaningful than they are for many people than any time recently.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        > I think that software developers and computer enthusiasts back then wanted to upgrade as often as they would now I was a software developer back then and the pace was measurably slower. Development tools would be static for years between upgrades too.
    - tibbon 10y ago
      Eh, my 2010 MBP 15" spec-wise seems around as fast as some of the new ones (has a real GPU, was able to update the memory to 16GB and throw an SSD in there). I'm still using it for Protools and it's just as good now as it was then (I don't use plugins, all outboard) But- I see your point. I have a 2013 MBP as my developer machine and it's being replaced the day the new one comes out.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  Look back to the story a few days ago about the C64 still in use in a Polish garage more than 25 years later. And C64 were not anywhere near as expensive as Apples. Cheaper stuff could still go on and on for years too. Biggest problem I see is that we're continuing the trend of specialized hardware and specialized software for that hardware. I can't run current ios software on an iphone 4 - it might be possible for people to write software for it, but they can't distribute it. Possibly similar for android - haven't done as much dev there. When I wrote for c64, I didn't have to worry about what version of stuff people had - they had a c64, same in 1983 as it was in 1990 - an entire 7 years, and new code would work on old systems. We're increasingly moving away from that. :/
- donretag 10y ago
  I used my first computer (8088) for years. Now what do I do with my Zork disks? ;)
- spaceisballer 10y ago
  I don't get using the word outdated, yes technology is always moving forward so things become "outdated" really quickly but they don't become obsolete quickly at all.
- Bud 10y ago
  Simply not true. Average usage life of the Macs I've bought over the last 30 years has been around 10 years. My 2007 iMac is no longer my primary Mac, but it's still in use as a server. Most of them have been sold and continued to be used by future owners after I upgraded.
- greedo 10y ago
  My Mac Pro has been running for over a decade with only the addition of an SSD... Assuming the PSU doesn't die on me, it should be able to run for at least 5 more years.
protomyth 10y ago
To be honest, the Apple ][ even back in its days was expensive compared to the other 8-bit machines. My parents could never afford an Apple, but we could afford an Atari 400[1]. The first Apples I saw were bought by my high school (IIe). For the price of just the IIe, I could get a machine with a floppy, printer, and monitor. Apple has always been more expensive than its competitors. 1) thanks to Jay Miner and company had better graphics and sound than the Apple ][

by tibbon 10y ago

jacquesm 10y ago

The first computers were built like tanks and typically were in use for a decade or more before being deprecated. That fully loaded Macbook Pro will be outdated before the ink of the advert is properly dried. It's a huge difference if you can deprecate an investment over a large number of years or if you're expected to buy something new every one or two years. Tablets and phones are even worse when it comes to aging.

dangoor 10y ago
I disagree. My father bought one of those TRS-80 Model IIIs in 1980, and I used it tons. By 1985, though, we had migrated over to a PC. Our Model III had been really decked out (even had a 5MB hard drive that we had gotten in a closeout deal). The difference between what you could do with a 1985 PC and a 1980 Model III was huge. In contrast, we have a 2009 MacBook Pro. Still works just fine for web browsing, word processing and things of that nature. Mobile phone hardware is moving super fast as desktop computers were in the '80s, but I think that the improvements in desktop (well, laptop is the equivalent today) hardware are less important for most people.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  When you migrate from one architecture to another it is kind of logical that you would get a new machine. The TRS-80 wasn't able to compete with the PC for very long (though in the beginning there was of course more software available for the TRS-80). But if you had stuck with the CP/M world you would have been able to run that old hardware for many years more. Note how you have relegated your 2009 MacBook Pro to 'web browsing, words processing and things of that nature', whereas as a developers machine it is likely quite underpowered. We are also at the end of the easy pickings from Moore's law so this too means that machine replacement pace is now (fortunately) finally dropping off a bit. But phones and tablets are basically an exercise in planned obsolescence and computers while they last a bit longer than in the past are still being replaced quite frequently. Your MacBook Pro is on it's 'second life', no longer in use for its primary purpose.
  - dangoor 10y ago
    My point was in relation to your comment about these old machines being in use for a decade whereas "That fully loaded Macbook Pro will be outdated before the ink of the advert is properly dried." I think that software developers and computer enthusiasts back then wanted to upgrade as often as they would now (though I might still argue that even for developers the pace is less today than it was back then). For your "average office worker" or "average home computer user", I'm guessing that their computer will serve them well for longer today with less clear incentive for upgrading. I mentioned the web browser, word processing and such because those are things that many non-developers commonly do with computers. That 2009 MacBook Pro would likely continue to serve a non-developer just fine and the only reason they might consider upgrading is that Mac OS Sierra doesn't support it. In short, I think desktop/laptop machine replacement pace started dropping off for most people years ago. In the 80s the performance and storage improvements were way more meaningful than they are for many people than any time recently.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      > I think that software developers and computer enthusiasts back then wanted to upgrade as often as they would now I was a software developer back then and the pace was measurably slower. Development tools would be static for years between upgrades too.
  - tibbon 10y ago
    Eh, my 2010 MBP 15" spec-wise seems around as fast as some of the new ones (has a real GPU, was able to update the memory to 16GB and throw an SSD in there). I'm still using it for Protools and it's just as good now as it was then (I don't use plugins, all outboard) But- I see your point. I have a 2013 MBP as my developer machine and it's being replaced the day the new one comes out.
mgkimsal 10y ago
Look back to the story a few days ago about the C64 still in use in a Polish garage more than 25 years later. And C64 were not anywhere near as expensive as Apples. Cheaper stuff could still go on and on for years too. Biggest problem I see is that we're continuing the trend of specialized hardware and specialized software for that hardware. I can't run current ios software on an iphone 4 - it might be possible for people to write software for it, but they can't distribute it. Possibly similar for android - haven't done as much dev there. When I wrote for c64, I didn't have to worry about what version of stuff people had - they had a c64, same in 1983 as it was in 1990 - an entire 7 years, and new code would work on old systems. We're increasingly moving away from that. :/
donretag 10y ago
I used my first computer (8088) for years. Now what do I do with my Zork disks? ;)
spaceisballer 10y ago
I don't get using the word outdated, yes technology is always moving forward so things become "outdated" really quickly but they don't become obsolete quickly at all.
Bud 10y ago
Simply not true. Average usage life of the Macs I've bought over the last 30 years has been around 10 years. My 2007 iMac is no longer my primary Mac, but it's still in use as a server. Most of them have been sold and continued to be used by future owners after I upgraded.
greedo 10y ago
My Mac Pro has been running for over a decade with only the addition of an SSD... Assuming the PSU doesn't die on me, it should be able to run for at least 5 more years.

protomyth 10y ago

To be honest, the Apple ][ even back in its days was expensive compared to the other 8-bit machines. My parents could never afford an Apple, but we could afford an Atari 400[1]. The first Apples I saw were bought by my high school (IIe). For the price of just the IIe, I could get a machine with a floppy, printer, and monitor. Apple has always been more expensive than its competitors. 1) thanks to Jay Miner and company had better graphics and sound than the Apple ][