4 ms·

No, not very similar. With abortion you're terminating the life of a child. Do homicide laws "control women", too?

brainfire 10y ago
Allowing women to dress inappropriately has a societal cost greater than the life of one child. Many lives could be ruined by the moral failures encouraged and enabled by bare flesh.
- programmarchy 10y ago
  Upvote for a fine illustration of Poe's law.
elros 10y ago
No, no, you're not. There is no child. You're getting rid of an embryo, and embryos have no rights.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Well they do to some extent, ethic aren't that simple we as a society do criminalize feticide beyond the fact that a person (the pregnant woman) was assaulted, and in some jurisdiction feticide is or can be counted as homicide and murder. In many countries there are various laws governing fetal rights, and most people agree that at least at some point the fetus is considered a human being hence the commonality of "born alive" laws. This isn't an argument against the right to be able to have an abortion, but it is simply not true that embryos and fetuses have no rights either, fetal rights are a pretty big subject in ethics and morality and it is not an easy one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights
unprepare 10y ago
unlike homicide, a woman has to carry a child inside of her body for 9 months, dealing with all manners of complications (even life threatening complications) the abortion = homicide idea is so flatly intellectually dishonest, im surprised to even see it mentioned here.
- programmarchy 10y ago
  It wasn't an equation. It was a question to illustrate the other extreme of the dialectic. My point was there's two lives in the balance -- conservatives want to protect the lives of the unborn, not "control women".
  - unprepare 10y ago
    Right but it's a terrible analogy for this discussion, it literally does 'control women' by forcing them to carry a baby for 9 months. How is forcing someone to do something they dont want to do, not 'controlling'? Whether that is there motivation or not is up for discussion, but it explicitly does control women. Whether the motivation for the hijab is to control women could also be debated, but that is beside the point that it /does/ control women. Whether there is another life in the balance also does not change the fact that it explicitly controls a woman's body. I'm not taking a stance here on whether abortion should be legal or whether it represents a homicide of some kind, im simply stating that it does in fact control a womans body, regardless of the intent.
    - programmarchy 10y ago
      It wasn't an analogy either. > How is forcing someone to do something they dont want to do, not 'controlling'? I think you've basically made my point. According to your definition, handcuffing a woman to prevent her from murdering an innocent adult with an axe is also 'controlling' her body. I hope you'd agree that is an acceptable use of force in order to protect a life. Now re-read radmuzom's comment and I think you'll see the absurdity of his comparison, which is what I wanted to point out.
      - unprepare 10y ago
        No, your point is excessively clear - that if forcing a woman to carry a child for nine months and go through the birthing process is controlling a woman, then so is arresting someone for committing a crime. Its a plainly ridiculous point to make, regardless of whether you believe abortion is murder. Pregnancy simply isnt the same thing as criminal punishment. Forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy would pretty clearly be a cruel or unusual punishment. Or do you believe that going through a pregnancy should be the punishment for other crimes as well?
SpikeDad 10y ago
Interestingly intellectually dishonest. How very cowardly of you to equate abortion with homicide. It's not even homicide, it's 1st degree murder. And doctors would be guilty of murder also. I would advise you to acquire some actual information on how fertilized eggs are frequently self-aborted and how little a fertilized egg is like a human life.
- programmarchy 10y ago
  Just had a child. He looked pretty human to me, even at twelve weeks.
  - SpikeDad 10y ago
    Well of course I wish you nothing but the best with your new child but if he/she was delivered at 12 week he would have almost certainly died. Not human enough yet.

Allowing women to dress inappropriately has a societal cost greater than the life of one child. Many lives could be ruined by the moral failures encouraged and enabled by bare flesh.

programmarchy 10y ago
Upvote for a fine illustration of Poe's law.

elros 10y ago

No, no, you're not. There is no child. You're getting rid of an embryo, and embryos have no rights.

dogma1138 10y ago
Well they do to some extent, ethic aren't that simple we as a society do criminalize feticide beyond the fact that a person (the pregnant woman) was assaulted, and in some jurisdiction feticide is or can be counted as homicide and murder. In many countries there are various laws governing fetal rights, and most people agree that at least at some point the fetus is considered a human being hence the commonality of "born alive" laws. This isn't an argument against the right to be able to have an abortion, but it is simply not true that embryos and fetuses have no rights either, fetal rights are a pretty big subject in ethics and morality and it is not an easy one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights

unprepare 10y ago

unlike homicide, a woman has to carry a child inside of her body for 9 months, dealing with all manners of complications (even life threatening complications) the abortion = homicide idea is so flatly intellectually dishonest, im surprised to even see it mentioned here.

programmarchy 10y ago
It wasn't an equation. It was a question to illustrate the other extreme of the dialectic. My point was there's two lives in the balance -- conservatives want to protect the lives of the unborn, not "control women".
- unprepare 10y ago
  Right but it's a terrible analogy for this discussion, it literally does 'control women' by forcing them to carry a baby for 9 months. How is forcing someone to do something they dont want to do, not 'controlling'? Whether that is there motivation or not is up for discussion, but it explicitly does control women. Whether the motivation for the hijab is to control women could also be debated, but that is beside the point that it /does/ control women. Whether there is another life in the balance also does not change the fact that it explicitly controls a woman's body. I'm not taking a stance here on whether abortion should be legal or whether it represents a homicide of some kind, im simply stating that it does in fact control a womans body, regardless of the intent.
  - programmarchy 10y ago
    It wasn't an analogy either. > How is forcing someone to do something they dont want to do, not 'controlling'? I think you've basically made my point. According to your definition, handcuffing a woman to prevent her from murdering an innocent adult with an axe is also 'controlling' her body. I hope you'd agree that is an acceptable use of force in order to protect a life. Now re-read radmuzom's comment and I think you'll see the absurdity of his comparison, which is what I wanted to point out.
    - unprepare 10y ago
      No, your point is excessively clear - that if forcing a woman to carry a child for nine months and go through the birthing process is controlling a woman, then so is arresting someone for committing a crime. Its a plainly ridiculous point to make, regardless of whether you believe abortion is murder. Pregnancy simply isnt the same thing as criminal punishment. Forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy would pretty clearly be a cruel or unusual punishment. Or do you believe that going through a pregnancy should be the punishment for other crimes as well?

SpikeDad 10y ago

Interestingly intellectually dishonest. How very cowardly of you to equate abortion with homicide. It's not even homicide, it's 1st degree murder. And doctors would be guilty of murder also. I would advise you to acquire some actual information on how fertilized eggs are frequently self-aborted and how little a fertilized egg is like a human life.

programmarchy 10y ago
Just had a child. He looked pretty human to me, even at twelve weeks.
- SpikeDad 10y ago
  Well of course I wish you nothing but the best with your new child but if he/she was delivered at 12 week he would have almost certainly died. Not human enough yet.