4 ms·

> imprisoning, beating and even raping women who don't comply with clothing requirements is just fine Something you said, not me. It's a pretty inflammatory st

> imprisoning, beating and even raping women who don't comply with clothing requirements is just fine Something you said, not me. It's a pretty inflammatory statement, so could you be specific about who does that and how often? Certainly women are assaulted - mostly by men - in many countries for violating social norms about their bodies. A big part of the women's rights revolution in the U.S. was taking control of that: Women decide what they can wear (bikinis), when to have sex (birth control and sexual assault laws), when to get pregnant (birth control), when not to (abortion), when they can be touched and commented on (sexual harassment). Before, it was a bunch of men telling women what they could or couldn't do with their own bodies. IMO, the faster that principle of basic self-determination (applied in whatever ways the local women want) spreads around the world the better, including Iran but many other countries and cultures too, and the U.S. and Europe have a ways to go themselves. As one example, some online communities in those countries (not HN but known here) encourage the abuse of women.

ethanbond 10y ago
So... what's your point? We all know the job isn't finished. It probably never will be. This is one woman who is attempting to spread those rights faster, and your commentary is limited to "well shucks maybe imprisoning women for driving is just their twist on not allowing people to go to church in bikinis!" Besides the fact that, in the US, there certainly are churches or places of worship in which you're allowed to wear whatever the hell you want.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > your commentary is limited to "well shucks maybe imprisoning women for driving is just their twist on not allowing people to go to church in bikinis!" Again, I didn't say that, you did. Perhaps quote something I did say. Regarding your statement, I'll repeat what I said above: It's a pretty inflammatory statement, so could you be specific about who does that and how often?
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    Do you live under a rock? How about Iran (the country in question) arresting women for showing hair (the problem in question) on Instagram. The problem with trying to quote you directly is that you actually aren't saying anything of substance. You're simply being an apologist who apparently can't muster up the courage to even take a stance on way or the other. You're just offering some good old PR hedging for an oppressive regime and trying to neuter the discussion with vague allusions to moral relativism. I'll ask again, what exactly are you trying to say? As it stands now, you're bogging down an important conversation that needs to happen with half-baked apologism. https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iranian-women-arrested-for-posting-vulgar-photos-on-instagram-without-wearing-headscarves-a7033236.html%3famp?client=safari https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...
    - DanBC 10y ago
      The claim was not "women are arrested for not wearing the hijab" (and everyone agrees that it's wrong to arrest people for clothing). The claim was "women are arrested, beaten, raped, murdered for not wearing the hijab". Is that true?
      - ethanbond 10y ago
        Uh, yes. http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/isis-stones-five-women-death-not-wearing-veil-says-mamouzini/ http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/isis-stones-five-women-dea... This isn't in Iran, but doesn't hackuser's lame moral relativism argument also apply to ISIS? Isn't stoning women to death for not wearing the hijab simply part of their moral code? After all, the US doesn't allow women to show their breasts in public. Edit: If your issue is specifically that someone implied that specifically rape/murder happens to women specifically in Iran specifically for wearing a hijab, here's a glimpse at what it means to be arrested in Iran: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world-jan-june11-iranianwomen_06-10/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world-jan-june11-iranianwomen... You can see that women get arrested for not wearing the hijab here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iranian-women-arrested-for-posting-vulgar-photos-on-instagram-without-wearing-headscarves-a7033236.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iranian-... So no, for some reason I can't seem to find an official press release from Khomeini that a specific woman was raped/murdered for not wearing a hijab. I can only point to mountains of evidence of systematic oppression and abuse, which undoubtedly includes arrest/rape/murder, and which undoubtedly includes the violation of simply not wearing a hijab.
Nursie 10y ago
In my view your initial post is an attempt to distract from how bad it is in Iran by heavily implying that the West is just as bad. It's not.
- hackuser 10y ago
  Again, you put words in my mouth (and thoughts in my head) and then argue with them. Those are your word and thoughts and I can't help you there. I would be interested in what you think about my actual words.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    They have no substance. It clearly contains dog whistle allusions to certain ideologies, but when you get called out for supporting said ideology, you back off and act like you never made the allusion. If you didn't make the allusion, then you didn't say anything relevant to the topic at hand.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > That's what everyone on this board thinks. That's not true. Don't speak for other people.
      - ethanbond 10y ago
        Edited
    - hackuser 10y ago
      Ironically, I think your statement, while again inflammatory, really encapsulates my point: You are seeing (or hearing) dog whistles in your head, but they're not in mine or my words. What if someone wasn't interested in ideology (or actually disliked it) and just wanted to talk about the issue intelligently? What if the hajib is not an ideological statement but just an article of clothing? All that extra baggage and meaning many attach to the hajib, and that you attach to my words, is in the eye of the beholder. It's the same thing, I think, that leads to abuse of makes innocent people (not that you are doing that, but I think one leads to another); they aren't people, they are ideological symbols of Islam, Judaism, Black, immigration, etc. We forget: They are just people, trying to go through their days. EDIT: Edited out response to edited comment in parent. Thanks for your consideration.
neo2006 10y ago
Beating, raping and abusing is opression hijab is not. I come from a Muslim country that acquired it freedom lately (Tunisia) and was oppressed the other way (wearing hijab was getting women to jail ...) guess what after we acquired our freedom the number of women wearing hijab multiplied , not because someone want them to wear it but because they want it. A lot of Muslim women living in france for example decide to wear hijab but each day a new law stop them from doing it in the name of women freedom, it's opression!! In my family my mother in law is wearing hijab and if I really need to point out an oppressed in my family I would say it's my father in law ;-)
- mr_pink 10y ago
  Iran is different. People trying to justify them with anecdotes like yours miss the point. What Iran is doing is ridiculous: there are minorities in Iran who are not Muslim, who've lived there for millennia even before Islam was a thing, who are now forced to wear a Hijab every day. How is that in any way justifiable is beyond me... Edit: I can't respond to the post below, for whatever reason. Minorities in question would be Assyrians and Armenians, for example, who are Christians and who absolutely have to cover their heads everywhere they go: http://forum.hyeclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2144 http://forum.hyeclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2144
  - hackuser 10y ago
    Could you link to story about this? I don't doubt there is widespread oppression in Iran, but there are so many ugly rumors that go around that I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about. Also, the hajib symbolizes all of Islam to many Western people, so I try to be careful about conflating one government's brutality with prejudice against a world-wide religion.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      Maybe you could RTFA? It's all about non-Muslim women who will be forced to used the hijab if they want to attend this championship.
    - 10y ago
namlem 10y ago
Don't you think that's part of the reason the West is averse to the hijab? Precisely because women have fought for years to be free from men micromanaging their bodies and behavior, the hijab stands out as a symbol of oppression. That's all that Iran is doing with its mandatory modesty laws: oppressing women. Yes, it happens in the West too, albeit to a much lesser degree, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't call it out when it happens elsewhere.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Obviously forcing people to wear a hijab is wrong. Is it acceptable to ban hijabs? > Don't you think that's part of the reason the West is averse to the hijab? Some of the West. Other parts of the west are fine with it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02vk6bj/high-street-hijabis http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02vk6bj/high-street-hi...
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    Where in this article is there any reference to banning the hijab? This article is about not requiring the hijab.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > the hijab stands out as a symbol of oppression I agree that many people in the West have made it a symbol (that was a major point of what I wrote). And I strongly agree that women should wear what they want. But I think that by making it a symbol, we create more problems: * It's become part of the narrative used by hateful and scared people to promote the dangerous, oppressive prejudice against Muslim people. Inflaming that evil is dangerous and leads directly to harm for a very large number of people. * Many people feel so strongly about the symbol that now they impose their view of the hajib on the same women, forcing them not to wear it (which is law now in some places in the West). That's no better than forcing them to wear it. Everyone needs to stop telling women what to wear. Hyping up this symbol isn't helping, it's doing more harm. > Yes, it happens in the West too, albeit to a much lesser degree, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't call it out when it happens elsewhere. I agree on all points.

ethanbond 10y ago

So... what's your point? We all know the job isn't finished. It probably never will be. This is one woman who is attempting to spread those rights faster, and your commentary is limited to "well shucks maybe imprisoning women for driving is just their twist on not allowing people to go to church in bikinis!" Besides the fact that, in the US, there certainly are churches or places of worship in which you're allowed to wear whatever the hell you want.

hackuser 10y ago
> your commentary is limited to "well shucks maybe imprisoning women for driving is just their twist on not allowing people to go to church in bikinis!" Again, I didn't say that, you did. Perhaps quote something I did say. Regarding your statement, I'll repeat what I said above: It's a pretty inflammatory statement, so could you be specific about who does that and how often?
- ethanbond 10y ago
  Do you live under a rock? How about Iran (the country in question) arresting women for showing hair (the problem in question) on Instagram. The problem with trying to quote you directly is that you actually aren't saying anything of substance. You're simply being an apologist who apparently can't muster up the courage to even take a stance on way or the other. You're just offering some good old PR hedging for an oppressive regime and trying to neuter the discussion with vague allusions to moral relativism. I'll ask again, what exactly are you trying to say? As it stands now, you're bogging down an important conversation that needs to happen with half-baked apologism. https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iranian-women-arrested-for-posting-vulgar-photos-on-instagram-without-wearing-headscarves-a7033236.html%3famp?client=safari https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...
  - DanBC 10y ago
    The claim was not "women are arrested for not wearing the hijab" (and everyone agrees that it's wrong to arrest people for clothing). The claim was "women are arrested, beaten, raped, murdered for not wearing the hijab". Is that true?
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      Uh, yes. http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/isis-stones-five-women-death-not-wearing-veil-says-mamouzini/ http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/isis-stones-five-women-dea... This isn't in Iran, but doesn't hackuser's lame moral relativism argument also apply to ISIS? Isn't stoning women to death for not wearing the hijab simply part of their moral code? After all, the US doesn't allow women to show their breasts in public. Edit: If your issue is specifically that someone implied that specifically rape/murder happens to women specifically in Iran specifically for wearing a hijab, here's a glimpse at what it means to be arrested in Iran: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world-jan-june11-iranianwomen_06-10/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world-jan-june11-iranianwomen... You can see that women get arrested for not wearing the hijab here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iranian-women-arrested-for-posting-vulgar-photos-on-instagram-without-wearing-headscarves-a7033236.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iranian-... So no, for some reason I can't seem to find an official press release from Khomeini that a specific woman was raped/murdered for not wearing a hijab. I can only point to mountains of evidence of systematic oppression and abuse, which undoubtedly includes arrest/rape/murder, and which undoubtedly includes the violation of simply not wearing a hijab.

Nursie 10y ago

In my view your initial post is an attempt to distract from how bad it is in Iran by heavily implying that the West is just as bad. It's not.

hackuser 10y ago
Again, you put words in my mouth (and thoughts in my head) and then argue with them. Those are your word and thoughts and I can't help you there. I would be interested in what you think about my actual words.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  They have no substance. It clearly contains dog whistle allusions to certain ideologies, but when you get called out for supporting said ideology, you back off and act like you never made the allusion. If you didn't make the allusion, then you didn't say anything relevant to the topic at hand.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > That's what everyone on this board thinks. That's not true. Don't speak for other people.
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      Edited
  - hackuser 10y ago
    Ironically, I think your statement, while again inflammatory, really encapsulates my point: You are seeing (or hearing) dog whistles in your head, but they're not in mine or my words. What if someone wasn't interested in ideology (or actually disliked it) and just wanted to talk about the issue intelligently? What if the hajib is not an ideological statement but just an article of clothing? All that extra baggage and meaning many attach to the hajib, and that you attach to my words, is in the eye of the beholder. It's the same thing, I think, that leads to abuse of makes innocent people (not that you are doing that, but I think one leads to another); they aren't people, they are ideological symbols of Islam, Judaism, Black, immigration, etc. We forget: They are just people, trying to go through their days. EDIT: Edited out response to edited comment in parent. Thanks for your consideration.

neo2006 10y ago

Beating, raping and abusing is opression hijab is not. I come from a Muslim country that acquired it freedom lately (Tunisia) and was oppressed the other way (wearing hijab was getting women to jail ...) guess what after we acquired our freedom the number of women wearing hijab multiplied , not because someone want them to wear it but because they want it. A lot of Muslim women living in france for example decide to wear hijab but each day a new law stop them from doing it in the name of women freedom, it's opression!! In my family my mother in law is wearing hijab and if I really need to point out an oppressed in my family I would say it's my father in law ;-)

mr_pink 10y ago
Iran is different. People trying to justify them with anecdotes like yours miss the point. What Iran is doing is ridiculous: there are minorities in Iran who are not Muslim, who've lived there for millennia even before Islam was a thing, who are now forced to wear a Hijab every day. How is that in any way justifiable is beyond me... Edit: I can't respond to the post below, for whatever reason. Minorities in question would be Assyrians and Armenians, for example, who are Christians and who absolutely have to cover their heads everywhere they go: http://forum.hyeclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2144 http://forum.hyeclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2144
- hackuser 10y ago
  Could you link to story about this? I don't doubt there is widespread oppression in Iran, but there are so many ugly rumors that go around that I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about. Also, the hajib symbolizes all of Islam to many Western people, so I try to be careful about conflating one government's brutality with prejudice against a world-wide religion.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Maybe you could RTFA? It's all about non-Muslim women who will be forced to used the hijab if they want to attend this championship.
  - 10y ago

namlem 10y ago

Don't you think that's part of the reason the West is averse to the hijab? Precisely because women have fought for years to be free from men micromanaging their bodies and behavior, the hijab stands out as a symbol of oppression. That's all that Iran is doing with its mandatory modesty laws: oppressing women. Yes, it happens in the West too, albeit to a much lesser degree, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't call it out when it happens elsewhere.

DanBC 10y ago
Obviously forcing people to wear a hijab is wrong. Is it acceptable to ban hijabs? > Don't you think that's part of the reason the West is averse to the hijab? Some of the West. Other parts of the west are fine with it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02vk6bj/high-street-hijabis http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02vk6bj/high-street-hi...
- ethanbond 10y ago
  Where in this article is there any reference to banning the hijab? This article is about not requiring the hijab.
hackuser 10y ago
> the hijab stands out as a symbol of oppression I agree that many people in the West have made it a symbol (that was a major point of what I wrote). And I strongly agree that women should wear what they want. But I think that by making it a symbol, we create more problems: * It's become part of the narrative used by hateful and scared people to promote the dangerous, oppressive prejudice against Muslim people. Inflaming that evil is dangerous and leads directly to harm for a very large number of people. * Many people feel so strongly about the symbol that now they impose their view of the hajib on the same women, forcing them not to wear it (which is law now in some places in the West). That's no better than forcing them to wear it. Everyone needs to stop telling women what to wear. Hyping up this symbol isn't helping, it's doing more harm. > Yes, it happens in the West too, albeit to a much lesser degree, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't call it out when it happens elsewhere. I agree on all points.