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My laptop boots to a text console. I use a wpa_supplicant script to connect to wifi. What kind of complex init system do you think I need? Honestly, what kind

by new299 10y ago

My laptop boots to a text console. I use a wpa_supplicant script to connect to wifi. What kind of complex init system do you think I need? Honestly, what kind of complex init system do most /servers/ need? But the issue is actually that systemd is not just an init system it's steadily increasing in scope to incorporate more and more services.

microcolonel 10y ago
The init system itself is more or less the same as it was a couple years ago. They have, however, written other daemons which are maintained in the same repository. All except two of them are optional. For example, systemd-timesyncd (controlled with timedatectl) is an excellent NTP system, and after it's been stable for a few years I'll use it with public NTP servers. It takes just one command to get up and running and it keeps your clocks synchronized, what's not to like?
- qb45 10y ago
  OpenNTPD is an extremely easy to use time client that has been around for years. And considering systemd's vs OpenBSD's track record I suppose it's also less likely to get you owned or set your time to Jan 1st 1970 because of some bullshit like "who could have predicted that in 2016 networks are still so bad that UDP can deliver packets out of order". And, btw, why should an init system come bundled with a time client or a time client bundled with an init system? When can I expect systemd-solitaire?
  - microcolonel 10y ago
    > And, btw, why should an init system come bundled with a time client or a time client bundled with an init system? That's entirely up to distribution packagers. 39k bytes and you get a dead-simple working ntp client daemon (no server) which requires literally no setup. If the distro packagers want to split it out or not include it at all, they can do that and the build system is set up to make that easy. So it really depends on how you mean "bundled", it's good and there's basically no reason not to include it in the package. I also figure it's a bit of a straw man to hypothesize a bug which hasn't occurred. NTP, as far as I'm aware, is mostly static structures on the wire. If there's a problem with the client, it's most likely your clock will just be wrong; bad as that is.
  - the_why_of_y 10y ago
    > And, btw, why should an init system come bundled with a time client or a time client bundled with an init system? http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sbin/init/ http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sbin/init/ http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.sbin/ntpd/ http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.sbin/ntpd/ Alas there is no OpenBSD-solitaire yet, but who really needs that if you can play "Hunt the Wumpus" instead: http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/games/wump/ http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/games/wump/
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      You could just as well has linked to the debian package repository. Seriously, are we likening systemd to a distro now?!
      - the_why_of_y 10y ago
        OpenBSD is UNIX, and UNIX is an operating system, not a "distro".
        digi_owl 10y ago
        And a init is neither.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
vetinari 10y ago
Actually, systemd on servers is great. It brings reliability and transparency that was missing with SysV init.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  Reliability and systemd on the same phrase only works with a 'not' in the middle
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    I guess by "servers" he means a stampeding herd of containers in some cloud service somewhere.
    - SysArchitect 10y ago
      That's ignoring the systemd problem entirely and pushing it down further...
- SysArchitect 10y ago
  It does nothing of the sort. The amount of issues I've had with systemd and not booting due to non-deterministic ordering in CentOS 7 is absolutely insane. My CentOS 7 OSD nodes will sometimes not complete booting because it's hung somewhere in the boot process. There is no way to tell systemd to continue, Ctrl + C doesn't do anything and there is no way to get into the system because sshd is still not running. Booting it in debug mode to try and get more information makes the whole thing work. Also, when a unit file gets stuck, it goes into this waiting loop, which is a giant pain in the behind... I want to try and fix it, not wait 10+ minutes for the unit files to time out. Ctrl + C should immediately stop what it is trying to do and dump me into some sort of login shell so that I can then go and fix the issue... I've also had issues on Ubuntu 16.04 because of third party software that doesn't correctly set up it's Requires/Wants/Before/After's and then systemd will happily hang the whole boot process. Worst thing is that these issues become more and more apparent on systems with more cores/CPU's... so the 44 core, 88 thread systems we have show the issue way more than the 4 thread desktop that developers are using...
cbsmith 10y ago
I guess the simple question to ask would be: how many processes do you have running after startup? How many of those services have dependancies on devices that may or may not be online/attached at any point in time?

by new299 10y ago

microcolonel 10y ago

The init system itself is more or less the same as it was a couple years ago. They have, however, written other daemons which are maintained in the same repository. All except two of them are optional. For example, systemd-timesyncd (controlled with timedatectl) is an excellent NTP system, and after it's been stable for a few years I'll use it with public NTP servers. It takes just one command to get up and running and it keeps your clocks synchronized, what's not to like?

qb45 10y ago
OpenNTPD is an extremely easy to use time client that has been around for years. And considering systemd's vs OpenBSD's track record I suppose it's also less likely to get you owned or set your time to Jan 1st 1970 because of some bullshit like "who could have predicted that in 2016 networks are still so bad that UDP can deliver packets out of order". And, btw, why should an init system come bundled with a time client or a time client bundled with an init system? When can I expect systemd-solitaire?
- microcolonel 10y ago
  > And, btw, why should an init system come bundled with a time client or a time client bundled with an init system? That's entirely up to distribution packagers. 39k bytes and you get a dead-simple working ntp client daemon (no server) which requires literally no setup. If the distro packagers want to split it out or not include it at all, they can do that and the build system is set up to make that easy. So it really depends on how you mean "bundled", it's good and there's basically no reason not to include it in the package. I also figure it's a bit of a straw man to hypothesize a bug which hasn't occurred. NTP, as far as I'm aware, is mostly static structures on the wire. If there's a problem with the client, it's most likely your clock will just be wrong; bad as that is.
- the_why_of_y 10y ago
  > And, btw, why should an init system come bundled with a time client or a time client bundled with an init system? http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sbin/init/ http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sbin/init/ http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.sbin/ntpd/ http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.sbin/ntpd/ Alas there is no OpenBSD-solitaire yet, but who really needs that if you can play "Hunt the Wumpus" instead: http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/games/wump/ http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/games/wump/
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    You could just as well has linked to the debian package repository. Seriously, are we likening systemd to a distro now?!
    - the_why_of_y 10y ago
      OpenBSD is UNIX, and UNIX is an operating system, not a "distro".
      - digi_owl 10y ago
        And a init is neither.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]

vetinari 10y ago

Actually, systemd on servers is great. It brings reliability and transparency that was missing with SysV init.

raverbashing 10y ago
Reliability and systemd on the same phrase only works with a 'not' in the middle
- digi_owl 10y ago
  I guess by "servers" he means a stampeding herd of containers in some cloud service somewhere.
  - SysArchitect 10y ago
    That's ignoring the systemd problem entirely and pushing it down further...
SysArchitect 10y ago
It does nothing of the sort. The amount of issues I've had with systemd and not booting due to non-deterministic ordering in CentOS 7 is absolutely insane. My CentOS 7 OSD nodes will sometimes not complete booting because it's hung somewhere in the boot process. There is no way to tell systemd to continue, Ctrl + C doesn't do anything and there is no way to get into the system because sshd is still not running. Booting it in debug mode to try and get more information makes the whole thing work. Also, when a unit file gets stuck, it goes into this waiting loop, which is a giant pain in the behind... I want to try and fix it, not wait 10+ minutes for the unit files to time out. Ctrl + C should immediately stop what it is trying to do and dump me into some sort of login shell so that I can then go and fix the issue... I've also had issues on Ubuntu 16.04 because of third party software that doesn't correctly set up it's Requires/Wants/Before/After's and then systemd will happily hang the whole boot process. Worst thing is that these issues become more and more apparent on systems with more cores/CPU's... so the 44 core, 88 thread systems we have show the issue way more than the 4 thread desktop that developers are using...

cbsmith 10y ago

I guess the simple question to ask would be: how many processes do you have running after startup? How many of those services have dependancies on devices that may or may not be online/attached at any point in time?