4 ms·

How you know your open source software project is doomed to fail

29 points by prog 16y ago

c00ki3s 16y ago
>* You've written your own source control for this code [ +30 points of FAIL ] Linus Torvalds wants to have a word with you.
- loup-vaillant 16y ago
  Considering that the Linux kernel hardly is the sole user of Git, these 30 points hardly apply. Conversely, Emacs certainly deserve a few fail points for being the sole user of its programming language (Emacs Lisp).
  - docgnome 16y ago
    Not really sure what the Emacs jab has to do with anything. It's a bit like comparing apples and Godzilla.
    - loup-vaillant 16y ago
      Well, "rolling your own programming language" wasn't mentioned in this fail list, but I feel it could have been, since build systems and vcs are mentioned. Hence the fail points for Emacs. Now, it can also yield win points for using an especially well suited programming language. (Bye the way, I love Emacs)
      - eru 16y ago
        Unix came with its own programming language.
- tbrownaw 16y ago
  I'd like to know if this point is meant to apply to self-hosting VCSes.
jimfl 16y ago
Your code assumes it is running in a POSIX environment [+20 point of FAIL]
- cperciva 16y ago
  Assuming that you're running on POSIX is pretty safe these days. Even Windows has a POSIX compatibility layer. I'd go so far as to say that being able to build and run in a POSIX environment without needing any platform-specific configuration (or autoconfiguration) is worth at least 20 points of WIN.
  - aidenn0 16y ago
    Having ported (or attempted to port) significant quantities of FOSS code to a fully POSIX conformant OS that is not windows/linux/bsd, I feel pretty comfortable stating that there are no non-trivial FOSS programs that do this (and 99% of all very simple "do just one thing" UNIXy programs don't).
jmillikin 16y ago
More proof that people who uses the word "fail" as a noun have few opinions worth listening to. Using his criteria, are there any major F/OSS projects which are not "So much fail, your code should have its own reality TV show"?
- jpr 16y ago
  There probably aren't. I don't know if tells more about the projects or the state of software in general. I'd bet on the latter.
patio11 16y ago
I am interested in hearing the considered thoughts of HNers about how one could optimize the experience of developing (as opposed to consuming) OSS in such a way as to improve the chance the project would succeed, but virtually any article would be a better starting point for discussion than this one.
- wmf 16y ago
  I like the book Producing Open Source Software: http://producingoss.com/ http://producingoss.com/
epochwolf 16y ago
I find this interesting. I have a few nitpicks for everyone's consideration. >* The source code is more than 100 MB. Excluding images, example usage, and generated documentation, sure. >* Your code tries to install into /opt or /usr/local [ +10 points of FAIL ] Installing to /usr/local is the accepted default for linux. Plus, I actually use the package manager on my system. I want compiled software to install to /opt or /usr/local so I can find it later and remove it if necessary. Now trying to install to /opt on windows is just stupid. >* Your code does not have per-file licensing [ +10 points of FAIL ] This is pedantic. If the entire codebase is under the same license which is given as LICENSE in the program's folder you're good. (You should make it clear in README that LICENSE does apply to the entire project.) If not, any inconsistent licensing should be explicitly defined either in a visible top level document next to LICENSE which lists each exception clearly (e.g. stuff in multiverse/ is proprietary, see multiverse/<project>/LICENSE for details) or at the top of each file that doesn't match the license in LICENSE.
- ominous_prime 16y ago
  >* Your code tries to install into /opt or /usr/local [ +10 points of FAIL ] I think this one bothered me the most. `/usr/local` is the correct default location for user installed software, per the "Filesystem Hierarchy Standard". If the software's static file must be contained in a `./<package>`or `./<provider>` directory (vs bin, lib, share...), it should probably go in `/opt`.
  - epochwolf 16y ago
    Ah... I see. Nginx likes to install itself to /usr/local/nginx which isn't correct per FHS. It should install to /opt/nginx.
    - ominous_prime 16y ago
      Yeah, but since /opt isn't always created by default on all systems, I don't think it's that big a deal. You can almost always count on /usr/local being there. As long as they don't go and dump stuff in /{bin,lib} or /usr/{bin,lib}.
cdibona 16y ago
And yet, the kernel and chromium are excellent codebases under healthy and active development and are running on tens or hundreds of millions of machines. We should all 'Fail' so well. People are happy to rant and rage, but the value of these large projects persists.
zackattack 16y ago
I'm turning hip hop goblin into an open source project and I could use a mentor as I have never been involved in open source before. I have many questions. For example: how do we keep track of which person is working on which task, such that people's efforts aren't being duplicated? I put the source on Github btw- http://github.com/zackster/hip-hop-goblin http://github.com/zackster/hip-hop-goblin
- DCoder 16y ago
  You're looking for an issue tracking system / bugtracker. Try the Issues tab on github. You create an issue/task that needs to be done, assign it to a developer, and ask them to update the issue's details as he/she progresses. I am not that familiar with GitHub, so I can't give you specific instructions or examples, but the project I'm working on uses Mantis for this, and it works a treat - we integrated it with SVN and now svn commits create new Product Versions, revision commit messages are automatically posted as issue comments + issues get marked as "resolved" if applicable, changelogs for latest changes, roadmaps for future plans, etc.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    Thanks. Apparently you can't delete issues on Github? Weird.
    - boucher 16y ago
      I love Github, I like the Github team, and I use Github issues every day. But I honestly can't wish it on anyone else, it's just terrible. It's slow, buggy, and not all that well organized.
igorgue 16y ago
My score for Chromium is: "65-90 points of FAIL: Kittens die when your code is downloaded"

29 points by prog 16y ago

>* You've written your own source control for this code [ +30 points of FAIL ] Linus Torvalds wants to have a word with you.

loup-vaillant 16y ago
Considering that the Linux kernel hardly is the sole user of Git, these 30 points hardly apply. Conversely, Emacs certainly deserve a few fail points for being the sole user of its programming language (Emacs Lisp).
- docgnome 16y ago
  Not really sure what the Emacs jab has to do with anything. It's a bit like comparing apples and Godzilla.
  - loup-vaillant 16y ago
    Well, "rolling your own programming language" wasn't mentioned in this fail list, but I feel it could have been, since build systems and vcs are mentioned. Hence the fail points for Emacs. Now, it can also yield win points for using an especially well suited programming language. (Bye the way, I love Emacs)
    - eru 16y ago
      Unix came with its own programming language.
tbrownaw 16y ago
I'd like to know if this point is meant to apply to self-hosting VCSes.

jimfl 16y ago

Your code assumes it is running in a POSIX environment [+20 point of FAIL]

cperciva 16y ago
Assuming that you're running on POSIX is pretty safe these days. Even Windows has a POSIX compatibility layer. I'd go so far as to say that being able to build and run in a POSIX environment without needing any platform-specific configuration (or autoconfiguration) is worth at least 20 points of WIN.
- aidenn0 16y ago
  Having ported (or attempted to port) significant quantities of FOSS code to a fully POSIX conformant OS that is not windows/linux/bsd, I feel pretty comfortable stating that there are no non-trivial FOSS programs that do this (and 99% of all very simple "do just one thing" UNIXy programs don't).

jmillikin 16y ago

More proof that people who uses the word "fail" as a noun have few opinions worth listening to. Using his criteria, are there any major F/OSS projects which are not "So much fail, your code should have its own reality TV show"?

jpr 16y ago
There probably aren't. I don't know if tells more about the projects or the state of software in general. I'd bet on the latter.

patio11 16y ago

I am interested in hearing the considered thoughts of HNers about how one could optimize the experience of developing (as opposed to consuming) OSS in such a way as to improve the chance the project would succeed, but virtually any article would be a better starting point for discussion than this one.

wmf 16y ago
I like the book Producing Open Source Software: http://producingoss.com/ http://producingoss.com/

epochwolf 16y ago

I find this interesting. I have a few nitpicks for everyone's consideration. >* The source code is more than 100 MB. Excluding images, example usage, and generated documentation, sure. >* Your code tries to install into /opt or /usr/local [ +10 points of FAIL ] Installing to /usr/local is the accepted default for linux. Plus, I actually use the package manager on my system. I want compiled software to install to /opt or /usr/local so I can find it later and remove it if necessary. Now trying to install to /opt on windows is just stupid. >* Your code does not have per-file licensing [ +10 points of FAIL ] This is pedantic. If the entire codebase is under the same license which is given as LICENSE in the program's folder you're good. (You should make it clear in README that LICENSE does apply to the entire project.) If not, any inconsistent licensing should be explicitly defined either in a visible top level document next to LICENSE which lists each exception clearly (e.g. stuff in multiverse/ is proprietary, see multiverse/<project>/LICENSE for details) or at the top of each file that doesn't match the license in LICENSE.

ominous_prime 16y ago
>* Your code tries to install into /opt or /usr/local [ +10 points of FAIL ] I think this one bothered me the most. `/usr/local` is the correct default location for user installed software, per the "Filesystem Hierarchy Standard". If the software's static file must be contained in a `./<package>`or `./<provider>` directory (vs bin, lib, share...), it should probably go in `/opt`.
- epochwolf 16y ago
  Ah... I see. Nginx likes to install itself to /usr/local/nginx which isn't correct per FHS. It should install to /opt/nginx.
  - ominous_prime 16y ago
    Yeah, but since /opt isn't always created by default on all systems, I don't think it's that big a deal. You can almost always count on /usr/local being there. As long as they don't go and dump stuff in /{bin,lib} or /usr/{bin,lib}.

cdibona 16y ago

And yet, the kernel and chromium are excellent codebases under healthy and active development and are running on tens or hundreds of millions of machines. We should all 'Fail' so well. People are happy to rant and rage, but the value of these large projects persists.

zackattack 16y ago

I'm turning hip hop goblin into an open source project and I could use a mentor as I have never been involved in open source before. I have many questions. For example: how do we keep track of which person is working on which task, such that people's efforts aren't being duplicated? I put the source on Github btw- http://github.com/zackster/hip-hop-goblin http://github.com/zackster/hip-hop-goblin

DCoder 16y ago
You're looking for an issue tracking system / bugtracker. Try the Issues tab on github. You create an issue/task that needs to be done, assign it to a developer, and ask them to update the issue's details as he/she progresses. I am not that familiar with GitHub, so I can't give you specific instructions or examples, but the project I'm working on uses Mantis for this, and it works a treat - we integrated it with SVN and now svn commits create new Product Versions, revision commit messages are automatically posted as issue comments + issues get marked as "resolved" if applicable, changelogs for latest changes, roadmaps for future plans, etc.
- zackattack 16y ago
  Thanks. Apparently you can't delete issues on Github? Weird.
  - boucher 16y ago
    I love Github, I like the Github team, and I use Github issues every day. But I honestly can't wish it on anyone else, it's just terrible. It's slow, buggy, and not all that well organized.

igorgue 16y ago

My score for Chromium is: "65-90 points of FAIL: Kittens die when your code is downloaded"