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That's … a bit drastic. Why should Apple have any say over whose software I choose to install on a device once I have bought it from them? (this is, incidenta

by zeveb 10y ago

That's … a bit drastic. Why should Apple have any say over whose software I choose to install on a device once I have bought it from them? (this is, incidentally, a major reason why I have not bought an Apple device in twenty years)

coldtea 10y ago
>That's … a bit drastic. Why should Apple have any say over whose software I choose to install on a device once I have bought it from them? So that they can fully control, secure and curate the experience, which is what I am buying Apple phones for. Well, not really (I'm mostly buying them for the hardware and software combo, which I prefer to Android offerings), but I can appreciate that having a single, sandboxed, signed, etc source of software on a phone, makes it more secure and hassle free thing for users (of which an extremely tiny minority are in any way computer geeks). It also creates a ecosystem that moves in lockstep with the hardware and OS changes -- even if just because it is forced to. For others, there's always a custom Android install.
- zeveb 10y ago
  I don't trust Apple to have my best interests at heart. Out of all the people and organisations in the world, only I have my best interests at heart. Thus, only I can be trusted to control, secure and curate my experience.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >I don't trust Apple to have my best interests at heart. Out of all the people and organisations in the world, only I have my best interests at heart. Thus, only I can be trusted to control, secure and curate my experience. Yes, but it's not about individual interests. It's about the aggregate interests of users of a platform, the majority of which are average Joes which would otherwise get every malware possible in their phone. It's kind of like democracy: you may know your best interests yourself, but you only get one vote. So what laws get passed etc, is what the majority decides. Only in this case Apple makes their political platform (iOS) and people vote with their wallets whether they like it or not. For lone-wolfs that tend to their own personal interests, there's always Android, or even OpenMoko.
    - zeveb 10y ago
      > Yes, but it's not about individual interests. On my devices it sure as heck is about my individual interests. I do not like authoritarianism in politics or software. I hate that a generation is being raised without the freedom to tinker, to own their hardware and to own their data.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >On my devices it sure as heck is about my individual interests. And you're always free to individually buy something else. >I hate that a generation is being raised without the freedom to tinker, to own their hardware and to own their data. You mean the same generation that has all kinds of compilers and developers tools for free (unlike back in the 80s and 90s), can reach the whole globe with a simple $5/month server app, and has hardware platforms like Arduino and Pi for less than $100 backs? I lived in the 80s. We didn't tinker on our smartphones because we didn't have any. Now we have something like 10,000 PDP-11s on our pockets, and an environment so accessible that there are 1,500,000 apps for it. And if we don't like forking $100 to the gatekeeper to get to publish apps for it, there are also web-apps, and Android, where we can just publish anything.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    "I don't trust Apple to have my best interests at heart." Then don't buy their device.
    - zeveb 10y ago
      > > I don't trust Apple to have my best interests at heart. > Then don't buy their device. From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12647379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12647379: > I have not bought an Apple device in twenty years
  - JadeNB 10y ago
    > Thus, only I can be trusted to control, secure and curate my experience. I think this is conflating two different meanings of trust. Apple hopes that you will trust them to choose to respect your best interests; but what I think most people are inclined to trust is that they are able to respect your best interests. The vast majority of non-techie users are not able to act in their best interests, even though they (presumably) want to do so.
eridius 10y ago
In 20 years? That doesn't make any sense. Until iOS, Apple had no say in what you installed on your device. And even on desktop, the App Store is completely optional.
- zeveb 10y ago
  I wrote 'a major reason,' not 'the major reason,' for a reason:-) The major reason is that I got into Linux before the Mac I bought in 1996 got too old to use. I've not looked back.
  - eridius 10y ago
    So basically, you haven't bought an Apple product in 20 years for reasons that really have nothing at all to do with this discussion, and that aren't even indicative of anything wrong on Apple's part, merely that you like Linux (although many people seem to think that Apple's laptops are the best laptops to use even for Windows and Linux, so it's surprising to me that you'd consider this a reason to avoid Apple's hardware, even if you don't use their software).
    - zeveb 10y ago
      > So basically, you haven't bought an Apple product in 20 years for reasons that really have nothing at all to do with this discussion No, Apple's control of the iPhone was perhaps the major reason I never bought one, way back before I had a smart phone (or even a cell phone). I have several major problems with Apple: I prefer Linux; their software is not free (this is related to the previous item); they control your devices (this is related to the previous item); since they got rid of the old iBooks and iMacs their design language has been boring and, frankly, ugly; I dislike the cult aspects of Apple (having once been a True Believer); I am tired of Apple's high opinion of itself (this is related to the previous item); I think their hardware is over-priced. I could probably think of more. Now, some of that is just a matter of taste (some people like Jony Ives's rectangles and circles — that's OK), but some of that is indicative of things which are, from my perspective at least, 'wrong on Apple's part,' to use your phrase.
javajosh 10y ago
>Why should Apple have any say over whose software I choose to install on a device once I have bought it from them? A valid reason is that you trust them to curate available programs according to values that you agree with. This reduces your risk considerably. (Consider the state of Windows executables in the bad old days.) Problems arise when a) you don't agree with their values, b) they don't actually act on their values. A lot of people are content to make the uninformed choice to trust Apple, and will continue to do so until their is an obviously better alternative.

by zeveb 10y ago

coldtea 10y ago

>That's … a bit drastic. Why should Apple have any say over whose software I choose to install on a device once I have bought it from them? So that they can fully control, secure and curate the experience, which is what I am buying Apple phones for. Well, not really (I'm mostly buying them for the hardware and software combo, which I prefer to Android offerings), but I can appreciate that having a single, sandboxed, signed, etc source of software on a phone, makes it more secure and hassle free thing for users (of which an extremely tiny minority are in any way computer geeks). It also creates a ecosystem that moves in lockstep with the hardware and OS changes -- even if just because it is forced to. For others, there's always a custom Android install.

zeveb 10y ago
I don't trust Apple to have my best interests at heart. Out of all the people and organisations in the world, only I have my best interests at heart. Thus, only I can be trusted to control, secure and curate my experience.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I don't trust Apple to have my best interests at heart. Out of all the people and organisations in the world, only I have my best interests at heart. Thus, only I can be trusted to control, secure and curate my experience. Yes, but it's not about individual interests. It's about the aggregate interests of users of a platform, the majority of which are average Joes which would otherwise get every malware possible in their phone. It's kind of like democracy: you may know your best interests yourself, but you only get one vote. So what laws get passed etc, is what the majority decides. Only in this case Apple makes their political platform (iOS) and people vote with their wallets whether they like it or not. For lone-wolfs that tend to their own personal interests, there's always Android, or even OpenMoko.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > Yes, but it's not about individual interests. On my devices it sure as heck is about my individual interests. I do not like authoritarianism in politics or software. I hate that a generation is being raised without the freedom to tinker, to own their hardware and to own their data.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >On my devices it sure as heck is about my individual interests. And you're always free to individually buy something else. >I hate that a generation is being raised without the freedom to tinker, to own their hardware and to own their data. You mean the same generation that has all kinds of compilers and developers tools for free (unlike back in the 80s and 90s), can reach the whole globe with a simple $5/month server app, and has hardware platforms like Arduino and Pi for less than $100 backs? I lived in the 80s. We didn't tinker on our smartphones because we didn't have any. Now we have something like 10,000 PDP-11s on our pockets, and an environment so accessible that there are 1,500,000 apps for it. And if we don't like forking $100 to the gatekeeper to get to publish apps for it, there are also web-apps, and Android, where we can just publish anything.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  "I don't trust Apple to have my best interests at heart." Then don't buy their device.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > > I don't trust Apple to have my best interests at heart. > Then don't buy their device. From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12647379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12647379: > I have not bought an Apple device in twenty years
- JadeNB 10y ago
  > Thus, only I can be trusted to control, secure and curate my experience. I think this is conflating two different meanings of trust. Apple hopes that you will trust them to choose to respect your best interests; but what I think most people are inclined to trust is that they are able to respect your best interests. The vast majority of non-techie users are not able to act in their best interests, even though they (presumably) want to do so.

eridius 10y ago

In 20 years? That doesn't make any sense. Until iOS, Apple had no say in what you installed on your device. And even on desktop, the App Store is completely optional.

zeveb 10y ago
I wrote 'a major reason,' not 'the major reason,' for a reason:-) The major reason is that I got into Linux before the Mac I bought in 1996 got too old to use. I've not looked back.
- eridius 10y ago
  So basically, you haven't bought an Apple product in 20 years for reasons that really have nothing at all to do with this discussion, and that aren't even indicative of anything wrong on Apple's part, merely that you like Linux (although many people seem to think that Apple's laptops are the best laptops to use even for Windows and Linux, so it's surprising to me that you'd consider this a reason to avoid Apple's hardware, even if you don't use their software).
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > So basically, you haven't bought an Apple product in 20 years for reasons that really have nothing at all to do with this discussion No, Apple's control of the iPhone was perhaps the major reason I never bought one, way back before I had a smart phone (or even a cell phone). I have several major problems with Apple: I prefer Linux; their software is not free (this is related to the previous item); they control your devices (this is related to the previous item); since they got rid of the old iBooks and iMacs their design language has been boring and, frankly, ugly; I dislike the cult aspects of Apple (having once been a True Believer); I am tired of Apple's high opinion of itself (this is related to the previous item); I think their hardware is over-priced. I could probably think of more. Now, some of that is just a matter of taste (some people like Jony Ives's rectangles and circles — that's OK), but some of that is indicative of things which are, from my perspective at least, 'wrong on Apple's part,' to use your phrase.

javajosh 10y ago

>Why should Apple have any say over whose software I choose to install on a device once I have bought it from them? A valid reason is that you trust them to curate available programs according to values that you agree with. This reduces your risk considerably. (Consider the state of Windows executables in the bad old days.) Problems arise when a) you don't agree with their values, b) they don't actually act on their values. A lot of people are content to make the uninformed choice to trust Apple, and will continue to do so until their is an obviously better alternative.