5 ms·

I also wondered about that. Why would you "secretly" arrest anyone? And here I thought a critical component of due process is that we don't detain people withou

I also wondered about that. Why would you "secretly" arrest anyone? And here I thought a critical component of due process is that we don't detain people without charging them with a crime, which is necessarily an open process. But what do I know? I'm just a schmuck who happens to believe normal people can read and interpret the constitution on their own.

madaxe_again 10y ago
Deleted as I thought better than posting this retrospectively. Sorry.
- micaksica 10y ago
  > Of course, from the outside it looks like he was just some Bad Man. Even the prime minister went on the news to condemn him. This is a lot of obfuscation. What happened here? How did they smear him? > From the external actions of the characters who oversee the legal professionals who are drafted into service in these secret systems, they definitely have their own, uh, interpretation of law and ethics. I am friends with some ex-IC guys; from their stories they appear closed in rank more than police, and are indoctrinated to the point that they see themselves as the paladins of American values and democracy. In reality, they are usually only upholding the interests of the powerful, where corporate interest and political value coincide, and those with real power know and reinforce this. To see this is too much cognitive dissonance for the ones that aren't secretly there just because they get off on the power. The paranoia and the power trip are good at reinforcing the "us vs. everyone" mentality that we know is pretty dangerous psychologically.
vertex-four 10y ago
The Constitution is a piece of paper, and might influence certain parts of Government to some degree, the same as any other piece of paper. But the beliefs of the people are what really matters. And if the people don't actually entirely agree with the Constitution to the point that they're willing to fight for it and drag their representatives out of Government over it, it's as useless as any other piece of paper.
- lettergram 10y ago
  Have you ever tried to get a group of people to protest anything? Like seriously, the black lives matter are more effective, than people regarding the NSA, privacy, or encryption. Even though some of the stuff we know about the government is WAY scarier.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    The issue is more that there's an incredible amount of people who just don't care about the Constitution. Or pretty much anything else that isn't affecting them in a really direct way right that moment in time. And so, in giving a democratic Government ridiculous amounts of power, we give it power to harm pretty much any minority it chooses, so long as it doesn't piss off too many other people.
  - bdavisx 10y ago
    Not to downplay the NSA issues -- but it's a lot scarier for a black/brown person to realize their life can be ended when they get stopped for having a tail light out.
    - kbenson 10y ago
      Yes. As these things go, every day existential threats generally trump threats to our liberty. I can't fault anyone for that.
    - lettergram 10y ago
      I do agree that people will think that way, but it's actually not scarier. Giving the government the power it has, implies the government can basically do what ever it want. It has secret courts, secret arrests, and secret police. That is way more horrifying than the very small risk of being shot - which the numbers don't even fully support that it's getting worse, unjustified, or even preventable. I recommend the Through the Wormhole episode: are we all bigots?). That being said, I do think we whould always be wary of police and generally question the government. It's important we keep into perspective what's actually a threat and whats just unfortunate. Both should be improved, but one (the NSA) can prevent any sort of improvement, the police shooting rate seems to be more of an over reaction and mistake that almost everyone agrees should be fixed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a-massive-new-study-on-police-shootings-of-whites-and-blacks-is-so-controversial/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a... http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/are-we-all-bigots/ http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/...
dogma1138 10y ago
"Secret" arrests are fairly common, they are often used daily when you need to arrest a large group of people without them scattering. Say you have 5 arrests warrants for members of a gang, you often can't arrest them all the once so here is where the "secret" comes into play when they are arrested and the arrest is maintained confidential for 24-48 hours depending on the jurisdiction. This is done to prevent the rest from scattering into hiding as soon as the news of one or more of them getting arrested breaks, this also means they won't hold down somewhere and be ready for a fight, or even go and do something worse like take hostages in order to try to get out of dodge. This also means that in some rights are withheld for the duration of the "gag order" like access to a phone or an attorney, however the police is not allowed to question or formally charge the subjects during that period either, so while there is some violation of rights it is not egregious.
- jbapple 10y ago
  This arrest happened in late August, it seems. Has SCOTUS set limits on how long prisoners can be held secretly?
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Criminal justice gags are usually hours to days depending on the case. The longer ones are usually to protect the arrestee if they are being put into protective custody / witness protection or are released as an informant. Since this is national security related who knows, I don't even know if these cases have been brought up to the supreme court before.
  - fredgrott 10y ago
    if its a computer access break-in FED law states 90 days notice..while not directly applying it would seem if someone was caught on illegal access after 90 days FEDs would have to let both the criminal know and theri lawyer so arrest would no longer be secret at thatpoint.
  - pjlegato 10y ago
    Yes, unsurprisingly there is an enormous amount of case law on this topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_St...
M_Grey 10y ago
Then you haven't been paying attention to legal precedents set since the late 70's, and think that you can hide behind a devalued piece of paper that courts and politicians and LEO's have been shitting on for decades.
mtgx 10y ago
I guess you haven't heard of this: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-poli...
thaumasiotes 10y ago
> But what do I know? I'm just a schmuck who happens to believe normal people can read and interpret the constitution on their own. To be fair, what if two people did that and disagreed?

madaxe_again 10y ago

Deleted as I thought better than posting this retrospectively. Sorry.

micaksica 10y ago
> Of course, from the outside it looks like he was just some Bad Man. Even the prime minister went on the news to condemn him. This is a lot of obfuscation. What happened here? How did they smear him? > From the external actions of the characters who oversee the legal professionals who are drafted into service in these secret systems, they definitely have their own, uh, interpretation of law and ethics. I am friends with some ex-IC guys; from their stories they appear closed in rank more than police, and are indoctrinated to the point that they see themselves as the paladins of American values and democracy. In reality, they are usually only upholding the interests of the powerful, where corporate interest and political value coincide, and those with real power know and reinforce this. To see this is too much cognitive dissonance for the ones that aren't secretly there just because they get off on the power. The paranoia and the power trip are good at reinforcing the "us vs. everyone" mentality that we know is pretty dangerous psychologically.

vertex-four 10y ago

The Constitution is a piece of paper, and might influence certain parts of Government to some degree, the same as any other piece of paper. But the beliefs of the people are what really matters. And if the people don't actually entirely agree with the Constitution to the point that they're willing to fight for it and drag their representatives out of Government over it, it's as useless as any other piece of paper.

lettergram 10y ago
Have you ever tried to get a group of people to protest anything? Like seriously, the black lives matter are more effective, than people regarding the NSA, privacy, or encryption. Even though some of the stuff we know about the government is WAY scarier.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  The issue is more that there's an incredible amount of people who just don't care about the Constitution. Or pretty much anything else that isn't affecting them in a really direct way right that moment in time. And so, in giving a democratic Government ridiculous amounts of power, we give it power to harm pretty much any minority it chooses, so long as it doesn't piss off too many other people.
- bdavisx 10y ago
  Not to downplay the NSA issues -- but it's a lot scarier for a black/brown person to realize their life can be ended when they get stopped for having a tail light out.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    Yes. As these things go, every day existential threats generally trump threats to our liberty. I can't fault anyone for that.
  - lettergram 10y ago
    I do agree that people will think that way, but it's actually not scarier. Giving the government the power it has, implies the government can basically do what ever it want. It has secret courts, secret arrests, and secret police. That is way more horrifying than the very small risk of being shot - which the numbers don't even fully support that it's getting worse, unjustified, or even preventable. I recommend the Through the Wormhole episode: are we all bigots?). That being said, I do think we whould always be wary of police and generally question the government. It's important we keep into perspective what's actually a threat and whats just unfortunate. Both should be improved, but one (the NSA) can prevent any sort of improvement, the police shooting rate seems to be more of an over reaction and mistake that almost everyone agrees should be fixed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a-massive-new-study-on-police-shootings-of-whites-and-blacks-is-so-controversial/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a... http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/are-we-all-bigots/ http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/...

dogma1138 10y ago

"Secret" arrests are fairly common, they are often used daily when you need to arrest a large group of people without them scattering. Say you have 5 arrests warrants for members of a gang, you often can't arrest them all the once so here is where the "secret" comes into play when they are arrested and the arrest is maintained confidential for 24-48 hours depending on the jurisdiction. This is done to prevent the rest from scattering into hiding as soon as the news of one or more of them getting arrested breaks, this also means they won't hold down somewhere and be ready for a fight, or even go and do something worse like take hostages in order to try to get out of dodge. This also means that in some rights are withheld for the duration of the "gag order" like access to a phone or an attorney, however the police is not allowed to question or formally charge the subjects during that period either, so while there is some violation of rights it is not egregious.

jbapple 10y ago
This arrest happened in late August, it seems. Has SCOTUS set limits on how long prisoners can be held secretly?
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Criminal justice gags are usually hours to days depending on the case. The longer ones are usually to protect the arrestee if they are being put into protective custody / witness protection or are released as an informant. Since this is national security related who knows, I don't even know if these cases have been brought up to the supreme court before.
- fredgrott 10y ago
  if its a computer access break-in FED law states 90 days notice..while not directly applying it would seem if someone was caught on illegal access after 90 days FEDs would have to let both the criminal know and theri lawyer so arrest would no longer be secret at thatpoint.
- pjlegato 10y ago
  Yes, unsurprisingly there is an enormous amount of case law on this topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_St...

M_Grey 10y ago

Then you haven't been paying attention to legal precedents set since the late 70's, and think that you can hide behind a devalued piece of paper that courts and politicians and LEO's have been shitting on for decades.

mtgx 10y ago

I guess you haven't heard of this: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-poli...

thaumasiotes 10y ago

> But what do I know? I'm just a schmuck who happens to believe normal people can read and interpret the constitution on their own. To be fair, what if two people did that and disagreed?