7 ms·

As a counterpoint: My family is in Atlanta (well, just outside of it), and it's probably my least favorite major American city. The traffic is out of control (a

As a counterpoint: My family is in Atlanta (well, just outside of it), and it's probably my least favorite major American city. The traffic is out of control (and has possibly the rudest drivers in the whole country), McMansions and suburban sprawl are a way of life (my brother-in-law has an hour long commute to his near-downtown office, and keeps an office in his house so he doesn't have to drive down every day), and it feels like everything is at least 30 minutes away by car (and unreachable any other way; even to catch a bus or train you have to drive to a park-and-ride) no matter where you are in the city. Also, there's casual racism on a scale I've not seen in any other major city I can think of. I grew up nearby, in Greenville, SC, and Atlanta was "The City". But, I've never liked it. Even with family there, I'd never consider it a place I'd want to live (and I really like my family!). I also don't choose to live in SF, but I'd pick it long before Atlanta. That said, it is a growing city with a ton of opportunity. I know some folks who've moved there from other cities and they almost immediately found good work in their industry of choice (film, where they'd been struggling for years in Austin, having to have a second job in retail just to make ends meet). So, sure, cost of living isn't bad and the economy is definitely booming. But, it's not a nice city, IMHO.

ledbettj 10y ago
I used to feel the same way you do; I grew up here, moved away, and eventually came back. Atlanta is a much different place now. I wouldn't choose to live "just outside" of Atlanta either, for all the terrible traffic/commute reasons you mentioned -- I live ITP and a 5 minute walk from a train station with a 10-minute hassle-free commute. Somehow I can survive here as part of a one-car household. Also please don't paint an entire city (let alone one with Atlanta's demographics) as full of "casual racism." C'mon.
- stouset 10y ago
  Agreed. Grew up in the suburbs, hated it. Moved into Atlanta and fell in love. It's perfectly proportioned for cycling. The food everywhere is amazing (I still miss Atlanta's food, now that I'm in SF).
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  "Also please don't paint an entire city (let alone one with Atlanta's demographics) as full of "casual racism." C'mon." It's the only major city I've been to where a white person dropping the word "nigger" (and used in a clearly negative way) not only happens in conversation, but it doesn't elicit gasps or any negative response. To be fair, it's also among the more diverse major cities, with tons of black-owned businesses, and that's awesome. So, it may be the clash of cultures (shitty old poor white southerners surrounded by successful black folks leading to resentment) rather than Atlanta being more racist. But, the south, in general, has such a long history of segregation, red-lining, private clubs that mysteriously have no black members, neighborhoods with no black residents, etc. So, I'm probably being overly harsh based on surface level stuff. Opportunity is an important part of the power of racism, and Atlanta seems to have shown itself capable of providing opportunity to black folks; at least enough to lead to lots of black folks choosing to live there. Cities like Austin, Portland, San Francisco, etc. may actually be more harmful (or at least less welcoming) to people of color than Atlanta, without any overt signals of racism.
  - SnacksOnAPlane 10y ago
    I would say that, at least in my neighborhood (Midtown), someone saying that would be absolutely shunned. I can't speak for all neighborhoods, but I've lived here for about 30 years and I have never ever heard someone say that in casual conversation. Yeah, we've got problems, but I would actually point you to our BLM protests as an example of our racial tolerance. They were almost completely nonviolent, well-organized, and incredibly diverse. Atlanta has a "we're all in this together" kind of spirit, at least in my experience. Casual racism is, for the most part, not tolerated.
  - wil421 10y ago
    That's such BS. I've lived here most of my life and never had some random person use N* in a conversation. Innuendoes maybe, even then it's usually some grumpy old person and they are flat out ignored. Look at St. Louis and Baltimore. Much more brutality on both sides and riots. Atlanta isn't the old Atlanta and we don't tolerate that crap.
    - 10y ago
- fma 10y ago
  I used to live in Decatur and now live in the burbs. Atlanta is diverse and has everything for everyone. Why bicker about it? You want to live in an expensive high rise? We got it. Want to live by a train station and commute to work? We got it. Want a McMansion? We got it. Want to live cheaply? We got it. People need to stop judging others on how they want to live and pretend theirs is better. Know why people move to the burbs? It's because most of the schools ITP are shitty, I can buy a bigger and newer house for my family to live comfortably. My small, 1974 home in Decatur is worth almost as much as my new home and the schools are not as good. I work in Alpharetta, and probably will always work there so my commute is reasonable.
matthewmcg 10y ago
All true, but it's getting better. Also, there's a huge quality of life difference in Atlanta between living just outside city limits and living in the urban core or one of the adjacent former streetcar suburbs. Not only in terms of traffic and transit options but proximity to entertainment and cultural attractions. Historically, most of the technology companies in the metro area were located in office parks in the northern suburbs. But momentum seems to be shifting back to in-town locations. When my firm moved to its present location in NW Midtown in 2007, we were the only tenant in our building. Since then, we've been joined by a marketing agency, Uber, Square, Worldpay, and a few others.
ethbro 10y ago
As someone who's lived in Atlanta for 8 years there's a massive difference in mindset and culture between the city (often referred to as ITP/Inside-the-Perimeter, referencing the ring of I-285 circling the city) and the various suburbs surrounding it. There's no way I'd live OTP by choice, especially with a non-flex, non-remote gig. Imho, Marietta/Cobb County (NW of Atlanta) and Alpharetta/North Fulton (N of Atlanta) especially tend to have... less than cosmopolitan perspectives. DeKalb (NE & E of Atlanta) can go various ways. My rebuttal to Atlanta being casually racist is always "Have you lived in the NW/NE?" We're absolutely still racially stratified (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta ), but compared to the other places I've lived and visited you run into a wider variety of people in everyday life. Which is important to me. Hell, when I was younger I once worked a service gig at a beach restaurant in CT and could count on two hands the number of non-white customers I served the entire summer.
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  The more I think about it, the more I think it's less about Atlanta being more racist...there's just more opportunity for white people to be shitty and racist because they interact people of color much more often than in most of the other major cities I've lived in. So, I probably should soften my accusation of racism. I still see it, and it is still uncomfortable, but I also have to acknowledge that Atlanta seems to have proven itself to be a great place for black folks to build careers, build businesses, etc. So, race relations may be tense in Atlanta, but it is probably not because the people are inherently more shitty than people everywhere else. And, I also have to acknowledge that some of my favorite cities that are not overtly racist are seemingly racist on a systemic level in ways that I as a white person don't see very clearly; Austin, for example, has a rapidly shrinking black population. That's probably a useful measure of racism, as well.
  - ynniv 10y ago
    Atlanta's on the front lines, and that's a great thing. It's complicated and reveals how bad things are, but it's also the only way things improve.
piptastic 10y ago
Agreed. I have to fly into Atlanta from the West Coast 3-4 times a year and it is also my least favorite major American city. There are nice places there (Top Golf, Bourbon Bar, tons of good restaurants)... But there are nice places everywhere and they certainly don't make up for Atlanta's other shortcomings. I can't articulate all the reasons for my distaste, but it just looks dirty and depressing. The traffic is horrible, the weather is usually bad. We refer to it as Shitlanta (which is an exaggeration, but not much of one).
- michaelcampbell 10y ago
  > We refer to it as Shitlanta clever. Come up with that all on your own?
  - piptastic 10y ago
    I didn't, no, someone in my family came up with it. And I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, which is fine as a response. It's a strong word, and I'm sure plenty of people love that area. We just emphatically do not.
- cglace 10y ago
  Dirty? What parts of Atlanta? One of my favorite things about Atlanta is how green it is. After living on the west coast for awhile it felt amazing to come back and actually see something green.
  - pbz 10y ago
    ATL is green, has lots of trees, it's beautiful, but the trash on the side of the roads is ridiculous (I'm talking 285, 400, 75, 85) and seems to be getting worse. It's especially bad around the airport; so much for first impressions. If you go outside of ATL (or even inside) the situation improves a lot.
    - cglace 10y ago
      Well yeah, in and around the airport is a pretty horrible area but that seems like an odd way of judging a city. As for the highways I can't really say it is any worse than any other city I have been to.
michaelcampbell 10y ago
> and has possibly the rudest drivers in the whole country) There are 2 truths I've found, having lived outside Chicago, Manhattan, Atlanta (in 3 different areas), Orlando, Tampa, and Los Angeles: 1. Wherever you are, people think the drivers there are worse than other places. 2. Wherever you are, people think the weather changes more frequently there than other places. I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically. As to your point I quoted, the drivers in Orlando are orders of magnitude worse than Atlanta. And I'm wondering if you've ever been to south Jersey or Boston, if you think Atlanta drivers are rude. Your other points about McMansions and SUB-urban sprawl are spot on. And, everything IS 30 minutes away, and unreachable by mass transit. re: casual racism... Dunno, maybe. At least it's not overt racism like I've seen in many other places, but I'm guessing that's not what you were getting at.
- 0xffff2 10y ago
  >I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically. That can't possibly have been a common occurrence in LA... Our weather changes about half a dozen times a year.
  - wickawic 10y ago
    Same with Seattle, which I have heard compared to Groundhog Day
    - jtolmar 10y ago
      People make that joke about Seattle quite a lot during certain seasons. Seattle has a few months of near-uninterrupted sunshine and a few months of near-uninterrupted drizzle, but the intervening months interpolate by changing the weight of their random switches between the two.
  - michaelcampbell 10y ago
    Haha yes that's fair.

ledbettj 10y ago

I used to feel the same way you do; I grew up here, moved away, and eventually came back. Atlanta is a much different place now. I wouldn't choose to live "just outside" of Atlanta either, for all the terrible traffic/commute reasons you mentioned -- I live ITP and a 5 minute walk from a train station with a 10-minute hassle-free commute. Somehow I can survive here as part of a one-car household. Also please don't paint an entire city (let alone one with Atlanta's demographics) as full of "casual racism." C'mon.

stouset 10y ago
Agreed. Grew up in the suburbs, hated it. Moved into Atlanta and fell in love. It's perfectly proportioned for cycling. The food everywhere is amazing (I still miss Atlanta's food, now that I'm in SF).
SwellJoe 10y ago
"Also please don't paint an entire city (let alone one with Atlanta's demographics) as full of "casual racism." C'mon." It's the only major city I've been to where a white person dropping the word "nigger" (and used in a clearly negative way) not only happens in conversation, but it doesn't elicit gasps or any negative response. To be fair, it's also among the more diverse major cities, with tons of black-owned businesses, and that's awesome. So, it may be the clash of cultures (shitty old poor white southerners surrounded by successful black folks leading to resentment) rather than Atlanta being more racist. But, the south, in general, has such a long history of segregation, red-lining, private clubs that mysteriously have no black members, neighborhoods with no black residents, etc. So, I'm probably being overly harsh based on surface level stuff. Opportunity is an important part of the power of racism, and Atlanta seems to have shown itself capable of providing opportunity to black folks; at least enough to lead to lots of black folks choosing to live there. Cities like Austin, Portland, San Francisco, etc. may actually be more harmful (or at least less welcoming) to people of color than Atlanta, without any overt signals of racism.
- SnacksOnAPlane 10y ago
  I would say that, at least in my neighborhood (Midtown), someone saying that would be absolutely shunned. I can't speak for all neighborhoods, but I've lived here for about 30 years and I have never ever heard someone say that in casual conversation. Yeah, we've got problems, but I would actually point you to our BLM protests as an example of our racial tolerance. They were almost completely nonviolent, well-organized, and incredibly diverse. Atlanta has a "we're all in this together" kind of spirit, at least in my experience. Casual racism is, for the most part, not tolerated.
- wil421 10y ago
  That's such BS. I've lived here most of my life and never had some random person use N* in a conversation. Innuendoes maybe, even then it's usually some grumpy old person and they are flat out ignored. Look at St. Louis and Baltimore. Much more brutality on both sides and riots. Atlanta isn't the old Atlanta and we don't tolerate that crap.
  - 10y ago
fma 10y ago
I used to live in Decatur and now live in the burbs. Atlanta is diverse and has everything for everyone. Why bicker about it? You want to live in an expensive high rise? We got it. Want to live by a train station and commute to work? We got it. Want a McMansion? We got it. Want to live cheaply? We got it. People need to stop judging others on how they want to live and pretend theirs is better. Know why people move to the burbs? It's because most of the schools ITP are shitty, I can buy a bigger and newer house for my family to live comfortably. My small, 1974 home in Decatur is worth almost as much as my new home and the schools are not as good. I work in Alpharetta, and probably will always work there so my commute is reasonable.

matthewmcg 10y ago

All true, but it's getting better. Also, there's a huge quality of life difference in Atlanta between living just outside city limits and living in the urban core or one of the adjacent former streetcar suburbs. Not only in terms of traffic and transit options but proximity to entertainment and cultural attractions. Historically, most of the technology companies in the metro area were located in office parks in the northern suburbs. But momentum seems to be shifting back to in-town locations. When my firm moved to its present location in NW Midtown in 2007, we were the only tenant in our building. Since then, we've been joined by a marketing agency, Uber, Square, Worldpay, and a few others.

ethbro 10y ago

As someone who's lived in Atlanta for 8 years there's a massive difference in mindset and culture between the city (often referred to as ITP/Inside-the-Perimeter, referencing the ring of I-285 circling the city) and the various suburbs surrounding it. There's no way I'd live OTP by choice, especially with a non-flex, non-remote gig. Imho, Marietta/Cobb County (NW of Atlanta) and Alpharetta/North Fulton (N of Atlanta) especially tend to have... less than cosmopolitan perspectives. DeKalb (NE & E of Atlanta) can go various ways. My rebuttal to Atlanta being casually racist is always "Have you lived in the NW/NE?" We're absolutely still racially stratified (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta ), but compared to the other places I've lived and visited you run into a wider variety of people in everyday life. Which is important to me. Hell, when I was younger I once worked a service gig at a beach restaurant in CT and could count on two hands the number of non-white customers I served the entire summer.

SwellJoe 10y ago
The more I think about it, the more I think it's less about Atlanta being more racist...there's just more opportunity for white people to be shitty and racist because they interact people of color much more often than in most of the other major cities I've lived in. So, I probably should soften my accusation of racism. I still see it, and it is still uncomfortable, but I also have to acknowledge that Atlanta seems to have proven itself to be a great place for black folks to build careers, build businesses, etc. So, race relations may be tense in Atlanta, but it is probably not because the people are inherently more shitty than people everywhere else. And, I also have to acknowledge that some of my favorite cities that are not overtly racist are seemingly racist on a systemic level in ways that I as a white person don't see very clearly; Austin, for example, has a rapidly shrinking black population. That's probably a useful measure of racism, as well.
- ynniv 10y ago
  Atlanta's on the front lines, and that's a great thing. It's complicated and reveals how bad things are, but it's also the only way things improve.

piptastic 10y ago

Agreed. I have to fly into Atlanta from the West Coast 3-4 times a year and it is also my least favorite major American city. There are nice places there (Top Golf, Bourbon Bar, tons of good restaurants)... But there are nice places everywhere and they certainly don't make up for Atlanta's other shortcomings. I can't articulate all the reasons for my distaste, but it just looks dirty and depressing. The traffic is horrible, the weather is usually bad. We refer to it as Shitlanta (which is an exaggeration, but not much of one).

michaelcampbell 10y ago
> We refer to it as Shitlanta clever. Come up with that all on your own?
- piptastic 10y ago
  I didn't, no, someone in my family came up with it. And I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, which is fine as a response. It's a strong word, and I'm sure plenty of people love that area. We just emphatically do not.
cglace 10y ago
Dirty? What parts of Atlanta? One of my favorite things about Atlanta is how green it is. After living on the west coast for awhile it felt amazing to come back and actually see something green.
- pbz 10y ago
  ATL is green, has lots of trees, it's beautiful, but the trash on the side of the roads is ridiculous (I'm talking 285, 400, 75, 85) and seems to be getting worse. It's especially bad around the airport; so much for first impressions. If you go outside of ATL (or even inside) the situation improves a lot.
  - cglace 10y ago
    Well yeah, in and around the airport is a pretty horrible area but that seems like an odd way of judging a city. As for the highways I can't really say it is any worse than any other city I have been to.

michaelcampbell 10y ago

> and has possibly the rudest drivers in the whole country) There are 2 truths I've found, having lived outside Chicago, Manhattan, Atlanta (in 3 different areas), Orlando, Tampa, and Los Angeles: 1. Wherever you are, people think the drivers there are worse than other places. 2. Wherever you are, people think the weather changes more frequently there than other places. I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically. As to your point I quoted, the drivers in Orlando are orders of magnitude worse than Atlanta. And I'm wondering if you've ever been to south Jersey or Boston, if you think Atlanta drivers are rude. Your other points about McMansions and SUB-urban sprawl are spot on. And, everything IS 30 minutes away, and unreachable by mass transit. re: casual racism... Dunno, maybe. At least it's not overt racism like I've seen in many other places, but I'm guessing that's not what you were getting at.

0xffff2 10y ago
>I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically. That can't possibly have been a common occurrence in LA... Our weather changes about half a dozen times a year.
- wickawic 10y ago
  Same with Seattle, which I have heard compared to Groundhog Day
  - jtolmar 10y ago
    People make that joke about Seattle quite a lot during certain seasons. Seattle has a few months of near-uninterrupted sunshine and a few months of near-uninterrupted drizzle, but the intervening months interpolate by changing the weight of their random switches between the two.
- michaelcampbell 10y ago
  Haha yes that's fair.