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>The Rust team has a very high commitment to stability, and does way more to maintain stability than any other language/compiler I know of (by testing new versi

by S_I 10y ago

>The Rust team has a very high commitment to stability, and does way more to maintain stability than any other language/compiler I know of (by testing new versions and potentially-breaking-changes against the entire ecosystem) Yes, but my experience is that they don't seem to manage generating the kind of trust needed to get my peers to give it a serious go. It's a purely social and subjective problem. >Just because multiple implementations of Rust don't exist (there are a couple but nothing 100% feature complete iirc) doesn't mean that the community doesn't understand the need for it. As i said, it SEEMS to be so. That means that it is a subjective impression my colleagues and me get. It is the job of the community to generate trust, not the (potential) user's. >Alternate implementations are hard to write and take time. Yes, see my P.S. Time will tell if it's worth it to compiler vendors. C made it easy for them right from the start. >Note that most languages have gone for years without getting a proper spec or alternate implementations. This is an advantage C has over Rust, agreed. It's usually not a dealbreaker, though. Not a dealbreaker for whom? In the infrastructure and big machine business you will see C, some C++ and Ada. All standardized. If the Rust community wants to offer an alternative for C, C++ and Ada, AND want Rust to succeed as an alternative, they need to understand that trust (in the toolchain) is generated in different ways in different industries.

Manishearth 10y ago
> Not a dealbreaker for whom? In the infrastructure and big machine business you will see C, some C++ and Ada. All standardized. Sure, there will be some cases where you absolutely need a standardized language. And Rust won't work there for a while at least. But that's a far cry from the picture painted in the original post.
- S_I 10y ago
  >And Rust won't work there for a while at least. Yes, and that is why those industries will choose to ignore it for a while at least. Chicken and egg.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    It's not a chicken and egg. Like I said, the Rust team does want to make this happen (and is already doing so from the specification side, though I suspect multiple implementations will come from elsewhere since we already have a couple partial ones). Rust already has lots of folks from other industries trying to use it -- there's plenty of momentum for it to get there. It will take time, but it's not like Rust will never get there without support from the industries you mention (which would be a chicken and egg problem)
    - S_I 10y ago
      Until this happens i will remain skeptical if the Rust community can pull it off without the backing of said industries. On the other i like being proven wrong. Time will tell. > though I suspect multiple implementations will come from elsewhere since we already have a couple partial ones) >Rust already has lots of folks from other industries trying to use it I'm not up to date. Input would be appreciated here.
      - Manishearth 10y ago
        As for alternate implementations, https://github.com/thepowersgang/mrustc https://github.com/thepowersgang/mrustc . As for specification, https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/1643 https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/1643 is what's currently happening, i.e. specifying exactly how unsafe code behaves (this is more important than specifying the rest). But the rest will come. As for the industry, https://www.rust-lang.org/friends.html https://www.rust-lang.org/friends.html
        S_I 10y ago
        Thanks.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
Not a dealbreaker for whom? In the infrastructure and big machine business you will see C, some C++ and Ada. All standardized. What are you talking about? There was a C standard because so many groups picked up C. The Ada mandate actually reduced its uptake with a bit of a rebound latter on when the tech itself was better (esp compilers). C++ got uptake before a standard plus fed into the C standard. So, no, the lack of a standard isn't stopping adoption by industry outside select firms that won't pick up tech unless it has a standards document which often isn't even accurate. What industry does care about are compilers, IDE's, existing libraries, available talent, ecosystem, who they can pay for support. These things aren't at a level they like yet. Adoption stays low. Note: Most infrastructure is written in C due to talent and compiler availability more than anything. That's what most embedded people tell me.
- S_I 10y ago
  That was then, now is now. Today, at least in europe, big companies do care about standards. Go ahead, try proposing using a Compiler that does not implement any standard like C,C++ or Ada in the Automotive industry. As for the rest, i agree.
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    Safety-critical industries here and over there are regulated by standards. They're an exception. Average, embedded system can use whatever it wants so long as it produces code to run on target board. Making your tooling generate C as output is easiest way to cheat. It's what I did with my BASIC 4GL. People were none the wiser.

by S_I 10y ago

Manishearth 10y ago

> Not a dealbreaker for whom? In the infrastructure and big machine business you will see C, some C++ and Ada. All standardized. Sure, there will be some cases where you absolutely need a standardized language. And Rust won't work there for a while at least. But that's a far cry from the picture painted in the original post.

S_I 10y ago
>And Rust won't work there for a while at least. Yes, and that is why those industries will choose to ignore it for a while at least. Chicken and egg.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  It's not a chicken and egg. Like I said, the Rust team does want to make this happen (and is already doing so from the specification side, though I suspect multiple implementations will come from elsewhere since we already have a couple partial ones). Rust already has lots of folks from other industries trying to use it -- there's plenty of momentum for it to get there. It will take time, but it's not like Rust will never get there without support from the industries you mention (which would be a chicken and egg problem)
  - S_I 10y ago
    Until this happens i will remain skeptical if the Rust community can pull it off without the backing of said industries. On the other i like being proven wrong. Time will tell. > though I suspect multiple implementations will come from elsewhere since we already have a couple partial ones) >Rust already has lots of folks from other industries trying to use it I'm not up to date. Input would be appreciated here.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      As for alternate implementations, https://github.com/thepowersgang/mrustc https://github.com/thepowersgang/mrustc . As for specification, https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/1643 https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/1643 is what's currently happening, i.e. specifying exactly how unsafe code behaves (this is more important than specifying the rest). But the rest will come. As for the industry, https://www.rust-lang.org/friends.html https://www.rust-lang.org/friends.html
      - S_I 10y ago
        Thanks.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

Not a dealbreaker for whom? In the infrastructure and big machine business you will see C, some C++ and Ada. All standardized. What are you talking about? There was a C standard because so many groups picked up C. The Ada mandate actually reduced its uptake with a bit of a rebound latter on when the tech itself was better (esp compilers). C++ got uptake before a standard plus fed into the C standard. So, no, the lack of a standard isn't stopping adoption by industry outside select firms that won't pick up tech unless it has a standards document which often isn't even accurate. What industry does care about are compilers, IDE's, existing libraries, available talent, ecosystem, who they can pay for support. These things aren't at a level they like yet. Adoption stays low. Note: Most infrastructure is written in C due to talent and compiler availability more than anything. That's what most embedded people tell me.

S_I 10y ago
That was then, now is now. Today, at least in europe, big companies do care about standards. Go ahead, try proposing using a Compiler that does not implement any standard like C,C++ or Ada in the Automotive industry. As for the rest, i agree.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  Safety-critical industries here and over there are regulated by standards. They're an exception. Average, embedded system can use whatever it wants so long as it produces code to run on target board. Making your tooling generate C as output is easiest way to cheat. It's what I did with my BASIC 4GL. People were none the wiser.