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Of course emotions are an argument. We're not Vulcans. Pretending that emotional impact is an irrelevant factor is a great way to win an argument without ever m

Of course emotions are an argument. We're not Vulcans. Pretending that emotional impact is an irrelevant factor is a great way to win an argument without ever making anyone care what you said.

gnarbarian 10y ago
Thanks for the reply. I 'feel' safer with the right to carry a gun. I can feel safer when everyone has a gun. Therefore morninj's argument does in fact also apply to guns. Anyone can feel a certain way about anything, which is why it is invalid when trying to construct a logically sound objective argument. A subjective premise can not lead us all to an objective conclusion.
- tremon 10y ago
  But there are no objective conclusions in politics, and asking for such is shutting the door to any useful progress. Ideally, a good political solution is one where all involved parties "feel" that they have realized more of their demands than the others -- not one where one party gets all the spoils based on winning 51% of an artificial binary vote. I feel (part of) the reason your society is in political gridlock is because everyone keeps looking for that mythical "objective" proof that ensures a 100% victory for their side. But that's just another unicorn.
  - gnarbarian 10y ago
    The challenge I proposed is intended to be an objective exercise otherwise it's pointless because everyone can feel however they want. Here are some examples of how both a gun and encryption can be used for the same end goal. X can secure a financial transaction X can stop a thief from obtaining my credit card information X can stop someone from forcibly obtaining my identity X can stop an attacker from obtaining private data stored in my home. The only thing I've been able to think of that applies to encryption and does not apply to a gun is: Encryption can verify that a message actually came from me by decrypting it using my public key. This is objectively true for encryption and objectively false for a firearm. Also a firearm doesn't really help with anything on the internet except maybe a shady craigslist transaction in a dark parking lot. But I meant to imply that a realistic and suitable physical analogy can be applied.
    - jacalata 10y ago
      Encryption means I can leave my private data unattended and be confident nobody will read it. That was easy.
      - gnarbarian 10y ago
        Cool! Do you now better understand the rationale of gun rights advocates?
        jacalata 10y ago
        No, I understood it pretty well earlier thanks. It's nice if this exercise helped you though.
        gnarbarian 10y ago
        At least you learned something about making an objective argument.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        jacalata 10y ago
        nah, I'm still right where I started - arguments that ignore emotional impacts are great little learning exercises but pointless if you are trying to achieve something in the real world. Good luck out there.
    - tremon 10y ago
      To me, the goal isn't the only thing that matters. How you achieve that goal matters too, and "using a threat of violence" ranks pretty low on the ladder of civility. Trying to equate the arguments based on goal alone is starting your argument from a false equivalence.
      - 10y ago

Of course emotions are an argument. We're not Vulcans. Pretending that emotional impact is an irrelevant factor is a great way to win an argument without ever making anyone care what you said.

gnarbarian 10y ago

Thanks for the reply. I 'feel' safer with the right to carry a gun. I can feel safer when everyone has a gun. Therefore morninj's argument does in fact also apply to guns. Anyone can feel a certain way about anything, which is why it is invalid when trying to construct a logically sound objective argument. A subjective premise can not lead us all to an objective conclusion.

tremon 10y ago
But there are no objective conclusions in politics, and asking for such is shutting the door to any useful progress. Ideally, a good political solution is one where all involved parties "feel" that they have realized more of their demands than the others -- not one where one party gets all the spoils based on winning 51% of an artificial binary vote. I feel (part of) the reason your society is in political gridlock is because everyone keeps looking for that mythical "objective" proof that ensures a 100% victory for their side. But that's just another unicorn.
- gnarbarian 10y ago
  The challenge I proposed is intended to be an objective exercise otherwise it's pointless because everyone can feel however they want. Here are some examples of how both a gun and encryption can be used for the same end goal. X can secure a financial transaction X can stop a thief from obtaining my credit card information X can stop someone from forcibly obtaining my identity X can stop an attacker from obtaining private data stored in my home. The only thing I've been able to think of that applies to encryption and does not apply to a gun is: Encryption can verify that a message actually came from me by decrypting it using my public key. This is objectively true for encryption and objectively false for a firearm. Also a firearm doesn't really help with anything on the internet except maybe a shady craigslist transaction in a dark parking lot. But I meant to imply that a realistic and suitable physical analogy can be applied.
  - jacalata 10y ago
    Encryption means I can leave my private data unattended and be confident nobody will read it. That was easy.
    - gnarbarian 10y ago
      Cool! Do you now better understand the rationale of gun rights advocates?
      - jacalata 10y ago
        No, I understood it pretty well earlier thanks. It's nice if this exercise helped you though.
        gnarbarian 10y ago
        At least you learned something about making an objective argument.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        jacalata 10y ago
        nah, I'm still right where I started - arguments that ignore emotional impacts are great little learning exercises but pointless if you are trying to achieve something in the real world. Good luck out there.
  - tremon 10y ago
    To me, the goal isn't the only thing that matters. How you achieve that goal matters too, and "using a threat of violence" ranks pretty low on the ladder of civility. Trying to equate the arguments based on goal alone is starting your argument from a false equivalence.
    - 10y ago