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> The Romans were barbarians, in a sense, I suppose, just compared to Greece. They didn't do anything that could compare to the Greeks in math or philosophy, fo

by vacri 10y ago

> The Romans were barbarians, in a sense, I suppose, just compared to Greece. They didn't do anything that could compare to the Greeks in math or philosophy, for example. The Greeks never had a lasting widespread empire, and warred amongst themselves a lot in their golden period. Yes, Alexander conquered all the way to the Indus, but as soon as he died, his empire splintered. The Romans, on the other hand, built an empire that lasted for centuries, and their culture as we see it is not defined by a mere handful of names. Maybe the Romans didn't exceed the Greeks at philosophy, but they certainly and uncontestably exceeded them at statecraft, which is why it's odd to hear them called 'barbarians' in comparison.

mcv 10y ago
The Romans were great at politics, engineering and warfare. The Greeks were great at all the stuff that doesn't help you keep an empire together.
- Ericson2314 10y ago
  Also arguably the Punic wars or something is their societal peak, and late republic their cultural. In the empire period the locus shifted east pretty quick. Which is to say the Romans assimilated into their conquered cultural betters.
bhritchie 10y ago
I don't really think they were barbarians in any very interesting sense, just that if there's some contemporary perspective from which you could have seen them that way it would be from a Greek cultural perspective. My point was more just that anything Rome might have lacked culturally was basically right next door in Greece and even familiar to educated Romans - it's silly to skip over Greece and denigrate the Romans from some "Asian" perspective when a substantial amount of that asian stuff derived from Greece in the first place. And I think the Romans knew they had the strengths you describe and the weaknesses I describe - and in the case of some Romans explicitly preferred it that way. Again that's not well described as a society that is "cut off" from anything.
YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
>> The Greeks never had a lasting widespread empire I am Greek so you can take the following with a big fat pinch of salt but, yes, yes we did have a "lasting widespread empire". We have it still: it's called the Western Civilisation. The Greeks conquered, not with swords and shields, but with philosophy, art and science. The Romans carried Greek culture along with them wherever they conquered. In the East, Greek philosophy reached India [1]. Arab scholars transcribed Greek philosphers' works and carried them over to the Middle Ages where they were picked up by Christian monks, themselves followers of a religion built on holy scriptures written in Greek (the Evangels, or, Gospels [2]). Most of early Western science either confirmed or refuted the ideas of the Greek philosphers [3]. Greek mathematics still form the basis of mathematical knowledge today [4]. And who knows what else was lost to war, or natural disasters [5]. I am very well aware of the fact that I would have been equally proud of my history were I to be British, or a descendant of the Mongols, or even a modern citizen of the USA. However, I'm not- I'm Greek and I'm proud to be a distant relative of a people that has gone down in history not for having the vastest empire, or the most fierce warriors, or the most brutal war machine, but for having kickstarted civilisation. Even today, you go to the capitals of the world and you see "Grecko-Roman" architecture built when people want to show the world that they dont' just have power, but brains also. You can bet yer keister we damn well conquered an empire. We conquered several of the things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanajataka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanajataka [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mathematics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mathematics [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
- fsloth 10y ago
  If we are discussing actual history now I think it's a bit of a hyperbole to claim all of western civilization as greek inheritance as this view trivializes the intellectual and cultural developments before and after the greek golden age. Yes, it offered great seeds for many things but those seeds were grown to fruitition by other people. It is very hard for me to see much living intellectual continuity from the ancient to the modern greece. The area was reduced to a backwater serfdom for centuries. Even the ancient texts had to be refound through islamic sources in the early renaissance. You can't just take Aristotle and Euclid and claim that they offer all of the keys to our modern civilization. Some - definetly.
jomamaxx 10y ago
The Greeks call Romans 'barbarians' because they are culturally bereft. It's the same reason Liberals might call Conservatives 'barbarians' or France might call Germany 'barbarians'. I.E. The Greeks saw themselves as superior, culturally. But the Romans were not actually barbarians. The Germans were actually barbarians.

by vacri 10y ago

mcv 10y ago

The Romans were great at politics, engineering and warfare. The Greeks were great at all the stuff that doesn't help you keep an empire together.

Ericson2314 10y ago
Also arguably the Punic wars or something is their societal peak, and late republic their cultural. In the empire period the locus shifted east pretty quick. Which is to say the Romans assimilated into their conquered cultural betters.

bhritchie 10y ago

I don't really think they were barbarians in any very interesting sense, just that if there's some contemporary perspective from which you could have seen them that way it would be from a Greek cultural perspective. My point was more just that anything Rome might have lacked culturally was basically right next door in Greece and even familiar to educated Romans - it's silly to skip over Greece and denigrate the Romans from some "Asian" perspective when a substantial amount of that asian stuff derived from Greece in the first place. And I think the Romans knew they had the strengths you describe and the weaknesses I describe - and in the case of some Romans explicitly preferred it that way. Again that's not well described as a society that is "cut off" from anything.

YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago

>> The Greeks never had a lasting widespread empire I am Greek so you can take the following with a big fat pinch of salt but, yes, yes we did have a "lasting widespread empire". We have it still: it's called the Western Civilisation. The Greeks conquered, not with swords and shields, but with philosophy, art and science. The Romans carried Greek culture along with them wherever they conquered. In the East, Greek philosophy reached India [1]. Arab scholars transcribed Greek philosphers' works and carried them over to the Middle Ages where they were picked up by Christian monks, themselves followers of a religion built on holy scriptures written in Greek (the Evangels, or, Gospels [2]). Most of early Western science either confirmed or refuted the ideas of the Greek philosphers [3]. Greek mathematics still form the basis of mathematical knowledge today [4]. And who knows what else was lost to war, or natural disasters [5]. I am very well aware of the fact that I would have been equally proud of my history were I to be British, or a descendant of the Mongols, or even a modern citizen of the USA. However, I'm not- I'm Greek and I'm proud to be a distant relative of a people that has gone down in history not for having the vastest empire, or the most fierce warriors, or the most brutal war machine, but for having kickstarted civilisation. Even today, you go to the capitals of the world and you see "Grecko-Roman" architecture built when people want to show the world that they dont' just have power, but brains also. You can bet yer keister we damn well conquered an empire. We conquered several of the things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanajataka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanajataka [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mathematics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mathematics [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

fsloth 10y ago
If we are discussing actual history now I think it's a bit of a hyperbole to claim all of western civilization as greek inheritance as this view trivializes the intellectual and cultural developments before and after the greek golden age. Yes, it offered great seeds for many things but those seeds were grown to fruitition by other people. It is very hard for me to see much living intellectual continuity from the ancient to the modern greece. The area was reduced to a backwater serfdom for centuries. Even the ancient texts had to be refound through islamic sources in the early renaissance. You can't just take Aristotle and Euclid and claim that they offer all of the keys to our modern civilization. Some - definetly.

jomamaxx 10y ago

The Greeks call Romans 'barbarians' because they are culturally bereft. It's the same reason Liberals might call Conservatives 'barbarians' or France might call Germany 'barbarians'. I.E. The Greeks saw themselves as superior, culturally. But the Romans were not actually barbarians. The Germans were actually barbarians.