6 ms·

Small lots means no garage or even driveway so street front park is all you get. Imagine forking over several hundred thousand for a house and then a few years

Small lots means no garage or even driveway so street front park is all you get. Imagine forking over several hundred thousand for a house and then a few years later finding out that you cannot park in front of your own home like you have done for years.

chris_7 10y ago
If this was important to you, why not purchase land with a private spot, instead of presuming continued free private use of a public resource?
- jcriddle4 10y ago
  Well lots of people can barely afford a home let alone try and get a home with a garage or driveway. In addition how do home owners anticipate that some nearby development, 5 or 10 years later, is going to go in without parking? Especially since the city council on several occasions has promised to require a reasonable amount of parking for new buildings.
  - twblalock 10y ago
    > In addition how do home owners anticipate that some nearby development, 5 or 10 years later, is going to go in without parking? You can't anticipate it, which is why you should never view street parking as a guaranteed feature of your home. People who can't afford homes with garages or driveways just need to be realistic about the fact that the parking situation on their street might change in the future. Similarly, all homeowners, whether they have garages and driveways or not, need to be realistic about the fact that many things in their neighborhood might change, including density and traffic. That's just life. You can't fully control what happens on land you don't own.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      As someone who grew up in a low density area this just seems bizarre to me, the idea that an outsider might have more right than you to the curb that is maintained with your property taxes. Almost as bizarre is the idea of houses without driveways.
      - twblalock 10y ago
        > the idea that an outsider might have more right than you to the curb that is maintained with your property taxes What makes you think someone parking on your street is an outsider, rather than a neighbor, or a guest of a neighbor who might very well pay property taxes in the same city you do?
        vorotato 10y ago
        When you live in a rural area, anyone parking near you is an outsider.
        nitrogen 10y ago
        Some cities charge taxes based on the number of feet of street connected to someone's yard. It seems perfectly logical that in such a city, the "right" to park should be greatest at one's own house, and fade with distance. So anyone from an apartment complex outside the neighborhood is an outsider, and should have less claim to the spot in front of a house than the house's owner. I also find it bizarre that some HN users (not you obviously since you can't downvote a direct reply) frequently downvote comments that provide a differing perspective from the anti-suburban anti-car view.
    - planteen 10y ago
      This is true. Dealing with a crappy parking situation when I was younger taught me that I never want to deal with it again. It's not fun having to park far away when you have a load of groceries in the snow.
  - davidw 10y ago
    Part of the reason housing is so expensive is because of all the zoning meaning you can't build up, or otherwise create denser housing. Supply is not meeting demand.
  - Kalium 10y ago
    I believe the canonically correct approach is to ensure up-front that your needs are covered rather than assuming your current convenient and non-guaranteed environment will persist. If you can't afford this, then you couldn't really afford the home you thought you could barely afford. I'm sorry to say it so bluntly, I understand how important homeownership is to so many people. Certainly imposing on everyone else by forcing them to cover the costs of your personal needs is somewhat sub-optimal.
    - Klinky 10y ago
      Perhaps the same reasoning applies to the developer who can't afford to build suitable parking for the residents of their new building? Can't afford to build suitable parking? Then you really can't afford to build it at all. Business also needs to learn to live within its means, as blunt as that is.
      - davidw 10y ago
        Here's how things would play out in a relatively free market: If you build housing with no parking attached to it, you won't be able to sell it for as much money. If people really care a lot about parking, that housing will have to be a lot cheaper to attract buyers. Perhaps so cheap that the developers won't make a profit on it and no one will build that kind of housing. As elsewhere "what is the correct amount of parking for a given unit of housing" is basically impossible to solve at a citywide level and is a perfect example of this, posted elsewhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem Most likely there are different kinds of people - some who care a lot about parking, and others who ride their bikes all the time or something. By providing diverse amounts of parking, people will sort out into different places that most suit their needs.
        Klinky 10y ago
        People buy shoddy shit and make poor purchasing choices all the time, e.g. fast food leading to obesity and an unhealthy populace. Just because someone will pay for it, doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that they've made a fully informed decision, or that a fully informed decision is possible due to information asymmetry. Maybe bathrooms should be optional? Some people may prefer to shit out the window or use the local YMCA to shower? Yeah that's a sanitation concern, but parking is a transit concern, both are major issues in cities. There needs to be some forethought into how the new residents are going to get into and out of the city. Simply leaving it up to profit seeking businesses to sort out doesn't mean a functional solution will actually be found.
twblalock 10y ago
> Imagine forking over several hundred thousand for a house and then a few years later finding out that you cannot park in front of your own home like you have done for years. Unless you had some kind of legal guarantee to park in front of your own home, you never should have counted on being able to do so. If you feel bad when you can't do it anymore, it's because you had unrealistic expectations from the beginning. You just happened to be lucky that nobody else parked there. If you want to guarantee that you will always be able to park in front of your house, buy a house with a garage or a driveway.
- GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
  Wait, so when rents go up in a neighborhood as the desirability increases, driving out the current residents, that's horrible gentrification. But if someone wants to continue to park in front of their house as they've done for years, maybe decades, well, tough shit?
  - twblalock 10y ago
    I never said gentrification was horrible.
- dalke 10y ago
  There's an odd thing about driveways. If there are no driveways then anyone can park in any spot. (To within limits of residence parking permits, etc.) But if there's a driveway, then no one can park in front of it, and only the owner can use the driveway. A driveway, therefore, effectively replaces a public street parking spot with a private, personal spot. From a parking utilization standpoint, it only makes sense to allow driveways and garages if it's very likely that more than one car will park there at times when on-street parking is full. (For example, in one place I rented, we had two cars parked in the side yard and one on the driveway, and did the car shuffle when needed.) Here's the math. http://www.drivewaytips.com/layout.html http://www.drivewaytips.com/layout.html says "A single car driveway width should be 10' wide, anything less than 10 feet will be too narrow to drive or park on comfortably. 12' is often used for added comfort and assuring to get out of your vehicle without stepping on the lawn or landscape." Others confirm that 10-12 feet is pretty standard. In many cities, no parking is allowed within 5 feet of the end of the driveway. Seattle is one, see http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/parking/drivewaymarking.htm http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/parking/drivewaymarkin... , where you'll see the 5 feet isn't from the width of the driveway proper but also includes the opening it makes when it reaches a curb. (Other cities have smaller limits, even down to 0 feet, while others have higher, even 10 feet. 5 feet seems pretty common) Therefore, a driveway takes about 22' of space on the curb, or perhaps a bit more. The standard parking space for parallel parking is 24' long for standard or 21' for compact: http://www.danbury-ct.gov/filestorage/21015/21087/21123/23014/Page8-1112.pdf http://www.danbury-ct.gov/filestorage/21015/21087/21123/2301... . Effectively, each driveway takes away a public parking spot. There's also an occupancy issue. Consider a worst-case scenario where someone lives near a park-and-ride train station, but needs to drive to work. In the morning there is a lack of parking spaces, because of people parking to commute into the city. In the evening, there's no problem to find parking. If the resident had no driveway then parking, for the most part, wouldn't be a problem because plenty of spaces are free. For the others, it means one extra spot is available. Now, put the driveway in and the homeowner has a easier time (eg, call in sick, go to the doctor, and sometimes there's no nearby parking spot for the return), while every single day someone else has a harder time to find parking.
Maarten88 10y ago
> street front park is all you get. Imagine forking over several hundred thousand for a house and then a few years later finding out that you cannot park in front of your own home Welcome to Amsterdam. Living in a dense city with very constrained parking is nice, but it's unfit for dual-car households. You need to use the bike and public transport. Or move to a suburb.

chris_7 10y ago

If this was important to you, why not purchase land with a private spot, instead of presuming continued free private use of a public resource?

jcriddle4 10y ago
Well lots of people can barely afford a home let alone try and get a home with a garage or driveway. In addition how do home owners anticipate that some nearby development, 5 or 10 years later, is going to go in without parking? Especially since the city council on several occasions has promised to require a reasonable amount of parking for new buildings.
- twblalock 10y ago
  > In addition how do home owners anticipate that some nearby development, 5 or 10 years later, is going to go in without parking? You can't anticipate it, which is why you should never view street parking as a guaranteed feature of your home. People who can't afford homes with garages or driveways just need to be realistic about the fact that the parking situation on their street might change in the future. Similarly, all homeowners, whether they have garages and driveways or not, need to be realistic about the fact that many things in their neighborhood might change, including density and traffic. That's just life. You can't fully control what happens on land you don't own.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    As someone who grew up in a low density area this just seems bizarre to me, the idea that an outsider might have more right than you to the curb that is maintained with your property taxes. Almost as bizarre is the idea of houses without driveways.
    - twblalock 10y ago
      > the idea that an outsider might have more right than you to the curb that is maintained with your property taxes What makes you think someone parking on your street is an outsider, rather than a neighbor, or a guest of a neighbor who might very well pay property taxes in the same city you do?
      - vorotato 10y ago
        When you live in a rural area, anyone parking near you is an outsider.
      - nitrogen 10y ago
        Some cities charge taxes based on the number of feet of street connected to someone's yard. It seems perfectly logical that in such a city, the "right" to park should be greatest at one's own house, and fade with distance. So anyone from an apartment complex outside the neighborhood is an outsider, and should have less claim to the spot in front of a house than the house's owner. I also find it bizarre that some HN users (not you obviously since you can't downvote a direct reply) frequently downvote comments that provide a differing perspective from the anti-suburban anti-car view.
  - planteen 10y ago
    This is true. Dealing with a crappy parking situation when I was younger taught me that I never want to deal with it again. It's not fun having to park far away when you have a load of groceries in the snow.
- davidw 10y ago
  Part of the reason housing is so expensive is because of all the zoning meaning you can't build up, or otherwise create denser housing. Supply is not meeting demand.
- Kalium 10y ago
  I believe the canonically correct approach is to ensure up-front that your needs are covered rather than assuming your current convenient and non-guaranteed environment will persist. If you can't afford this, then you couldn't really afford the home you thought you could barely afford. I'm sorry to say it so bluntly, I understand how important homeownership is to so many people. Certainly imposing on everyone else by forcing them to cover the costs of your personal needs is somewhat sub-optimal.
  - Klinky 10y ago
    Perhaps the same reasoning applies to the developer who can't afford to build suitable parking for the residents of their new building? Can't afford to build suitable parking? Then you really can't afford to build it at all. Business also needs to learn to live within its means, as blunt as that is.
    - davidw 10y ago
      Here's how things would play out in a relatively free market: If you build housing with no parking attached to it, you won't be able to sell it for as much money. If people really care a lot about parking, that housing will have to be a lot cheaper to attract buyers. Perhaps so cheap that the developers won't make a profit on it and no one will build that kind of housing. As elsewhere "what is the correct amount of parking for a given unit of housing" is basically impossible to solve at a citywide level and is a perfect example of this, posted elsewhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem Most likely there are different kinds of people - some who care a lot about parking, and others who ride their bikes all the time or something. By providing diverse amounts of parking, people will sort out into different places that most suit their needs.
      - Klinky 10y ago
        People buy shoddy shit and make poor purchasing choices all the time, e.g. fast food leading to obesity and an unhealthy populace. Just because someone will pay for it, doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that they've made a fully informed decision, or that a fully informed decision is possible due to information asymmetry. Maybe bathrooms should be optional? Some people may prefer to shit out the window or use the local YMCA to shower? Yeah that's a sanitation concern, but parking is a transit concern, both are major issues in cities. There needs to be some forethought into how the new residents are going to get into and out of the city. Simply leaving it up to profit seeking businesses to sort out doesn't mean a functional solution will actually be found.

twblalock 10y ago

> Imagine forking over several hundred thousand for a house and then a few years later finding out that you cannot park in front of your own home like you have done for years. Unless you had some kind of legal guarantee to park in front of your own home, you never should have counted on being able to do so. If you feel bad when you can't do it anymore, it's because you had unrealistic expectations from the beginning. You just happened to be lucky that nobody else parked there. If you want to guarantee that you will always be able to park in front of your house, buy a house with a garage or a driveway.

GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
Wait, so when rents go up in a neighborhood as the desirability increases, driving out the current residents, that's horrible gentrification. But if someone wants to continue to park in front of their house as they've done for years, maybe decades, well, tough shit?
- twblalock 10y ago
  I never said gentrification was horrible.
dalke 10y ago
There's an odd thing about driveways. If there are no driveways then anyone can park in any spot. (To within limits of residence parking permits, etc.) But if there's a driveway, then no one can park in front of it, and only the owner can use the driveway. A driveway, therefore, effectively replaces a public street parking spot with a private, personal spot. From a parking utilization standpoint, it only makes sense to allow driveways and garages if it's very likely that more than one car will park there at times when on-street parking is full. (For example, in one place I rented, we had two cars parked in the side yard and one on the driveway, and did the car shuffle when needed.) Here's the math. http://www.drivewaytips.com/layout.html http://www.drivewaytips.com/layout.html says "A single car driveway width should be 10' wide, anything less than 10 feet will be too narrow to drive or park on comfortably. 12' is often used for added comfort and assuring to get out of your vehicle without stepping on the lawn or landscape." Others confirm that 10-12 feet is pretty standard. In many cities, no parking is allowed within 5 feet of the end of the driveway. Seattle is one, see http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/parking/drivewaymarking.htm http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/parking/drivewaymarkin... , where you'll see the 5 feet isn't from the width of the driveway proper but also includes the opening it makes when it reaches a curb. (Other cities have smaller limits, even down to 0 feet, while others have higher, even 10 feet. 5 feet seems pretty common) Therefore, a driveway takes about 22' of space on the curb, or perhaps a bit more. The standard parking space for parallel parking is 24' long for standard or 21' for compact: http://www.danbury-ct.gov/filestorage/21015/21087/21123/23014/Page8-1112.pdf http://www.danbury-ct.gov/filestorage/21015/21087/21123/2301... . Effectively, each driveway takes away a public parking spot. There's also an occupancy issue. Consider a worst-case scenario where someone lives near a park-and-ride train station, but needs to drive to work. In the morning there is a lack of parking spaces, because of people parking to commute into the city. In the evening, there's no problem to find parking. If the resident had no driveway then parking, for the most part, wouldn't be a problem because plenty of spaces are free. For the others, it means one extra spot is available. Now, put the driveway in and the homeowner has a easier time (eg, call in sick, go to the doctor, and sometimes there's no nearby parking spot for the return), while every single day someone else has a harder time to find parking.

Maarten88 10y ago

> street front park is all you get. Imagine forking over several hundred thousand for a house and then a few years later finding out that you cannot park in front of your own home Welcome to Amsterdam. Living in a dense city with very constrained parking is nice, but it's unfit for dual-car households. You need to use the bike and public transport. Or move to a suburb.