6 ms·

$2400 a year? What US dev works for that in this market? You are better off at burger king.

by asimuvPR 10y ago

nine_k 10y ago
This is $200 a month; unless you work part-time, it's likely illegal.
- duaneb 10y ago
  This is only as an employee. You're free to contract your own rate at whatever you'd like (including for free); while "salary" implies a full employment that doesn't look like the case here. EDIT: none of what I said applies; this was in Mexico.
  - nine_k 10y ago
    While I may agree with some criticisms of minimum wages, there are jurisdictions that mandate a minimum hourly rate. Most of the US states are such jurisdictions.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- bigiain 10y ago
  Jurisdictions are quite important when deciding whether something's "illegal". Seems like that's twice the minimum wage where it happened (just from reading the post/comments), so it's extremely unlikely to be "illegal" where it happened. (it's a curious question as to whether there's anything illegal, and if so, on who's part, if a Mexican business is paying above-local-minimum wage salaries to people who are not local. If you _accept_ a remote job where the renumeration is disclosed but below your local minimum wage - I wonder if any law has been broken, and if so, by who?)
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    >>If you _accept_ a remote job where the renumeration is disclosed but below your local minimum wage - I wonder if any law has been broken, and if so, by who? Yes. That is a crime. The employee has committed a crime by negotiation/accepting the wage. The employer has too. Regardless of where they think they "work" they are employing someone standing in the other jurisdiction. If one allows offshore companies to bypass wage laws then every single local company would be run through an offshore shell, negating the local law. So it is near-universal that offshores must comply with local wage laws. In practical terms, a flesh-and-blood 'employee' isn't going to be prosecuted. That side of things is reserved for sub-contracting entities that aren't real people. Negotiating a sub-minimum wage contract remains a crime for subcontractors. This is necessary to prevent one-person "companies" negotiating illegal pay for their one employee under the fiction that they are an arms-length subcontractor when everyone knows the person is effectively an employee.
lazaroclapp 10y ago
None should, but this is ~2x the Mexican minimum wage. I guess the question here (as per nine_k comment) becomes, if you are working remotely, for a position listed in country A, but you are located in country B, do country B's minimum wage laws apply? If so, does that mean the company in country A should pay you a higher wage, or simply means you don't qualify for the position (note that developer positions in Mexico with Mexican companies are often advertised with offer details such as the salary, in a way that is not common in the U.S.) Edit: huge correction on the multiplier on minimum wage. For some reason I had been comparing monthly rates with annual ones and arriving at 24x. Upon careful examination, that is ridiculous, but the overall point remains. With the correction, this is actually hugely subpar wages for developers even in Mexico, but not quite illegal wages... for reference, entry level dev work at software companies might be around $20,000 MXP, which is currently $1,000 USD monthly.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Vanit 10y ago
  $2400 is their annual wage, not monthly. Only 2x
- daeken 10y ago
  24x the Mexican minimum wage would be $28.8k. This is 2x minimum wage.
  - lazaroclapp 10y ago
    Shit, I didn't read the annually versus monthly part... corrected in the original, with edit note.
kevindong 10y ago
Farther into the article: > To be fair to Squad, the Mexican minimum wage is about $100 USD monthly, so they weren't technically paying anyone lower than the minimum wage...
- asimuvPR 10y ago
  Some were US based developers who could have gotten more money as dish washers. I don't get this.
  - meowface 10y ago
    Moreover, they know they were directly working on a game that made at least (1.5M * 39.99) ~60 million USD. I admire dedication to one's work and love of the game and all, but that's just not rational.
    - sidlls 10y ago
      What about working for literally nothing? Like, say, open source?
      - asimuvPR 10y ago
        In open source you keep the rights. Which for this game probably means millions. They did not get the rights or Rúe money. It just baffles me to no end.
        sidlls 10y ago
        Keeping the rights to something you're giving away for free is the definition of meaningless symbolism in this context.
    - esrauch 10y ago
      Not that it justifies anything but that is probably a significant overestimate, Steam takes 30% and most people didn't pay full price for the game.
dethstar 10y ago
Using current exchange rates that's about 3850 MXN a month. That sounds like what my friend made as a cashier here in Mexico. Very shitty payment, even for this country. A good entry level job starts at about 10k a month.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
A homeless beggar can clear $2400 a year easy; that's less than $7 a day. You're essentially working for free at that point. I don't understand why they ever agreed to it, at least not without some sort of profit-sharing thing.
- bigiain 10y ago
  Maybe because: July 2015 - Oct 2016: Lead Engineer, Squad Delivered Kerbal Space program version 1.2 on time and on budget. Managed team of 5 geographically distributed developers and graphic artists. Reduced defect count by 17% Reads way better than: July 2015 - Oct 2016: Panhandler, Mission and 16th Achieved 11% month on month growth in revenue. Exceeded all set goals and milestones. Migrated from crack to high grade Bolivian cocaine without incurring mob debt or serious personal injury. ;-) (Though with a little more polishing and embellishment, I bet you could get that second entry past a typical recruiter... Maybe change to "July 2015 - Oct 2016: Growth Hacking Contractor, Bay Area Startup still in stealth mode (under NDA)... " and "Migrated from legacy processes to best practice agile methodology without incurring technical debt or serious downtime." - there, that ought to do it...)
ryandrake 10y ago
Hard to judge without knowing the full story. There are many possible reasons for taking a job with less than average pay. Tough job market, lots of competition, wanting to get some (any) experience on the resume. It's not like plum, high paying tech jobs are growing on trees, despite what you might hear about the mythical "shortage of developers".
josephagoss 10y ago
Actually worse, beggars on the street make more money.

$2400 a year? What US dev works for that in this market? You are better off at burger king.

nine_k 10y ago

This is $200 a month; unless you work part-time, it's likely illegal.

duaneb 10y ago
This is only as an employee. You're free to contract your own rate at whatever you'd like (including for free); while "salary" implies a full employment that doesn't look like the case here. EDIT: none of what I said applies; this was in Mexico.
- nine_k 10y ago
  While I may agree with some criticisms of minimum wages, there are jurisdictions that mandate a minimum hourly rate. Most of the US states are such jurisdictions.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
bigiain 10y ago
Jurisdictions are quite important when deciding whether something's "illegal". Seems like that's twice the minimum wage where it happened (just from reading the post/comments), so it's extremely unlikely to be "illegal" where it happened. (it's a curious question as to whether there's anything illegal, and if so, on who's part, if a Mexican business is paying above-local-minimum wage salaries to people who are not local. If you _accept_ a remote job where the renumeration is disclosed but below your local minimum wage - I wonder if any law has been broken, and if so, by who?)
- sandworm101 10y ago
  >>If you _accept_ a remote job where the renumeration is disclosed but below your local minimum wage - I wonder if any law has been broken, and if so, by who? Yes. That is a crime. The employee has committed a crime by negotiation/accepting the wage. The employer has too. Regardless of where they think they "work" they are employing someone standing in the other jurisdiction. If one allows offshore companies to bypass wage laws then every single local company would be run through an offshore shell, negating the local law. So it is near-universal that offshores must comply with local wage laws. In practical terms, a flesh-and-blood 'employee' isn't going to be prosecuted. That side of things is reserved for sub-contracting entities that aren't real people. Negotiating a sub-minimum wage contract remains a crime for subcontractors. This is necessary to prevent one-person "companies" negotiating illegal pay for their one employee under the fiction that they are an arms-length subcontractor when everyone knows the person is effectively an employee.

lazaroclapp 10y ago

None should, but this is ~2x the Mexican minimum wage. I guess the question here (as per nine_k comment) becomes, if you are working remotely, for a position listed in country A, but you are located in country B, do country B's minimum wage laws apply? If so, does that mean the company in country A should pay you a higher wage, or simply means you don't qualify for the position (note that developer positions in Mexico with Mexican companies are often advertised with offer details such as the salary, in a way that is not common in the U.S.) Edit: huge correction on the multiplier on minimum wage. For some reason I had been comparing monthly rates with annual ones and arriving at 24x. Upon careful examination, that is ridiculous, but the overall point remains. With the correction, this is actually hugely subpar wages for developers even in Mexico, but not quite illegal wages... for reference, entry level dev work at software companies might be around $20,000 MXP, which is currently $1,000 USD monthly.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Vanit 10y ago
$2400 is their annual wage, not monthly. Only 2x
daeken 10y ago
24x the Mexican minimum wage would be $28.8k. This is 2x minimum wage.
- lazaroclapp 10y ago
  Shit, I didn't read the annually versus monthly part... corrected in the original, with edit note.

kevindong 10y ago

Farther into the article: > To be fair to Squad, the Mexican minimum wage is about $100 USD monthly, so they weren't technically paying anyone lower than the minimum wage...

asimuvPR 10y ago
Some were US based developers who could have gotten more money as dish washers. I don't get this.
- meowface 10y ago
  Moreover, they know they were directly working on a game that made at least (1.5M * 39.99) ~60 million USD. I admire dedication to one's work and love of the game and all, but that's just not rational.
  - sidlls 10y ago
    What about working for literally nothing? Like, say, open source?
    - asimuvPR 10y ago
      In open source you keep the rights. Which for this game probably means millions. They did not get the rights or Rúe money. It just baffles me to no end.
      - sidlls 10y ago
        Keeping the rights to something you're giving away for free is the definition of meaningless symbolism in this context.
  - esrauch 10y ago
    Not that it justifies anything but that is probably a significant overestimate, Steam takes 30% and most people didn't pay full price for the game.

dethstar 10y ago

Using current exchange rates that's about 3850 MXN a month. That sounds like what my friend made as a cashier here in Mexico. Very shitty payment, even for this country. A good entry level job starts at about 10k a month.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

A homeless beggar can clear $2400 a year easy; that's less than $7 a day. You're essentially working for free at that point. I don't understand why they ever agreed to it, at least not without some sort of profit-sharing thing.

bigiain 10y ago
Maybe because: July 2015 - Oct 2016: Lead Engineer, Squad Delivered Kerbal Space program version 1.2 on time and on budget. Managed team of 5 geographically distributed developers and graphic artists. Reduced defect count by 17% Reads way better than: July 2015 - Oct 2016: Panhandler, Mission and 16th Achieved 11% month on month growth in revenue. Exceeded all set goals and milestones. Migrated from crack to high grade Bolivian cocaine without incurring mob debt or serious personal injury. ;-) (Though with a little more polishing and embellishment, I bet you could get that second entry past a typical recruiter... Maybe change to "July 2015 - Oct 2016: Growth Hacking Contractor, Bay Area Startup still in stealth mode (under NDA)... " and "Migrated from legacy processes to best practice agile methodology without incurring technical debt or serious downtime." - there, that ought to do it...)

ryandrake 10y ago

Hard to judge without knowing the full story. There are many possible reasons for taking a job with less than average pay. Tough job market, lots of competition, wanting to get some (any) experience on the resume. It's not like plum, high paying tech jobs are growing on trees, despite what you might hear about the mythical "shortage of developers".

josephagoss 10y ago

Actually worse, beggars on the street make more money.