5 ms·

I don't buy this argue...Open Whisper Systems managed to not roll over and they are only less than half a dozen people...

jonny_eh 10y ago
Devils advocate: They have less to lose.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  Advocate for reality: they don't mean shit in bigger scheme of things since virtually nobody uses them. So secret groups put less effort into them. Yahoo, Gmail, Lavabit, various IM's... all were in the Snowden leaks as SIGINT-enabled through taps, black bags, or "FBI coercion." If Whisper got that important, I think we'd see bad stuff happen to the company or Moxie. So, enjoy the added protection from nation states of low uptake if you're using it. :)
hirsin 10y ago
It's easy to say with confidence "These 6 people that I know well and represent are OK losing their jobs when you fine my company out of existence". It's much harder to say "I will defy you and in the process cost 10k+ people their jobs without them having any say or knowledge of this".
- slantedview 10y ago
  > I will defy you and in the process cost 10k+ people their jobs without them having any say or knowledge of this There's no way the govt. would do anything more than skewer (or attempt to) a few sacrificial lambs for violating a gag order. There's no political win otherwise.
  - wcummings 10y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-lawsuit-documents-fine-user-data-refusal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-laws... "The US government threatened to fine Yahoo $250,000 a day if it refused to hand over user data to the National Security Agency, according to court documents unsealed on Thursday." "The size of the daily fine was set to double every week that Yahoo refused to comply, the documents show." Two years ago
    - ddalex 10y ago
      Such a fine can be challenged in open court, no? Or is there an order by a secret court preventing Yahoo challenging the fine in a regular court? How do you defend yourself from secret orders issued by secret courts that forbid defending yourself? What is this, mafia or the government ?
      - wcummings 10y ago
        Yahoo challenged it in FISA court, not open court. "Yahoo took its case to the foreign intelligence surveillance court, also known as the Fisa court, which oversees requests for surveillance orders in national security investigations. The secretive Fisa court provides the legal authorities that underpin the US government’s controversial surveillance programmes. Yahoo lost its case, and an appeal."

jonny_eh 10y ago

Devils advocate: They have less to lose.

nickpsecurity 10y ago
Advocate for reality: they don't mean shit in bigger scheme of things since virtually nobody uses them. So secret groups put less effort into them. Yahoo, Gmail, Lavabit, various IM's... all were in the Snowden leaks as SIGINT-enabled through taps, black bags, or "FBI coercion." If Whisper got that important, I think we'd see bad stuff happen to the company or Moxie. So, enjoy the added protection from nation states of low uptake if you're using it. :)

hirsin 10y ago

It's easy to say with confidence "These 6 people that I know well and represent are OK losing their jobs when you fine my company out of existence". It's much harder to say "I will defy you and in the process cost 10k+ people their jobs without them having any say or knowledge of this".

slantedview 10y ago
> I will defy you and in the process cost 10k+ people their jobs without them having any say or knowledge of this There's no way the govt. would do anything more than skewer (or attempt to) a few sacrificial lambs for violating a gag order. There's no political win otherwise.
- wcummings 10y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-lawsuit-documents-fine-user-data-refusal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-laws... "The US government threatened to fine Yahoo $250,000 a day if it refused to hand over user data to the National Security Agency, according to court documents unsealed on Thursday." "The size of the daily fine was set to double every week that Yahoo refused to comply, the documents show." Two years ago
  - ddalex 10y ago
    Such a fine can be challenged in open court, no? Or is there an order by a secret court preventing Yahoo challenging the fine in a regular court? How do you defend yourself from secret orders issued by secret courts that forbid defending yourself? What is this, mafia or the government ?
    - wcummings 10y ago
      Yahoo challenged it in FISA court, not open court. "Yahoo took its case to the foreign intelligence surveillance court, also known as the Fisa court, which oversees requests for surveillance orders in national security investigations. The secretive Fisa court provides the legal authorities that underpin the US government’s controversial surveillance programmes. Yahoo lost its case, and an appeal."