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Ask YC: Any of you use Dvorak?
I started using a dvorak keyboard about five years ago purely for nerdy fun. I enjoy it personally, but would never try to evangelize it. Anyway, I was just curious if anyone else out there used it and if you knew of any dvorak-friendly editors and such... Emacs is a nightmare in Dvorak...
Edit: A follow-up question if you do use dvorak would be: If you actually have a dvorak-in-hardware keyboard, which one?
- slackerIII 19y agoYes, I use it and I really think it has helped my wrists. I don't type much faster than I used to, but it feels much more comfortable. Another good trick is to swap your ctrl and capslock keys. I don't have any trouble using vi with dvorak. Navigating using hjkl still makes sense.
- Xichekolas 19y agoYeah I definitely feel like my wrists move a lot less using Dvorak, so it is more comfortable for long periods for me at least. I'll have to try the caplocks/ctrl switching.
- adamdoupe 19y agoSteve Yegge's post "Effective Emacs" has instructions for how to do this, plus some other emacs tips: http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs
- albertcardona 19y agoWorks best for me: making the caps be the escape key, and swapping alt and control. I am a vim user. Why swap alt and control: so that I can do control+whatever while pushing control with my thumb. No wrist or weird little finger streching to push the caps key.
- bct 19y agoIt took me a while to get used to hjkl with Dvorak, but Nethack did a good job retraining me. (As a vim user, I've swapped Caps Lock and Esc.)
- a-priori 19y agoI use Dvorak too... have for about 5 years now, for no reason other than that I like it better. I also use Emacs just fine, but then again I learned Emacs after Dvorak, so I don't really know how much different Emacs is on QWERTY.
- sparkycw 19y agoI also use Dvorak, but had to retrain myself on VIM. I originally used QWERTY to learn VIM, then switched to Dvorak because I totally sucked at touch typing on QWERTY. That layout never made sense to me, but Dvorak did and now I'm happy to report I can type along at about 35 WPM. Which to me, is screaming fast! What's really odd is now I've been able to touch type on QWERTY too! It takes a few seconds for the brain to switch modes, but it'll do it. I'm not as fast as Dvorak, but I can hope on another keyboard and work. I've used Dvorty Boards in the past, and now use TypeMatrix ZVR-2030 keyboard. On laptops, I switch using software, and just ignore the keyboard.
- ken 19y agoSure, for about 15 years. I agree that it's more comfortable, not faster. Coincidentally, this is about the same length of time I've used Emacs. I don't see what's nightmarish about it. The keys either have English mnemonics (C-b/C-f = back/forward), or are completely arbitrary (C-v = page-down). Its keyboard commands are not at all tied to the Sholes layout, like some editors I could mention. I think it's less nightmarish than, say, being a native Swedish or Japanese speaker and trying to figure out what C-b and C-f mean. But then, I've found that the way keyboard shortcuts are encoded in one's brain differs greatly between people. Maybe visual learners find hjkl more natural, and auditory learners find bfpn more natural.
- Hexstream 19y ago"The keys either have English mnemonics (C-b/C-f = back/forward), or are completely arbitrary (C-v = page-down)." Bad example for a completely arbitrary key... v looks like a down arrow. Hence, page down.
- divia 19y agoI use it too, for about 10 years now. I agree with what everyone else is saying--it may not be faster, but it is definitely more comfortable. I use emacs, and I've never found the commands to be a problem.
- Hexstream 19y agoI use Dvorak exclusively. I've started using it right when I started touchtyping (I'm 21, I started touchtyping something like a year and a half ago. Previously I was a "fast" hunt-and-pecker, except I didn't really hunt at all). I got frustrated with touchtyping Qwerty very quickly because... well, it just felt dumb when I tried typing "street" or "states". Why should two such common nouns with common letters be so awfully awkward to type?! And there's the seemingly random arrangement of keys, which incidentally is ACTUALLY random... Anyway, I found out about Dvorak, read about it, started using it and never looked back ever since. You say you started using a Dvorak keyboard... do you mean a Dvorak keyboard layout?... Typing Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard is not a problem at all. In fact, I'd say it's beneficial. When I started touchtyping Qwerty, I kept looking down at the keys out of habit and lack of confidence, and that impeded my speed and learning. Whereas when I started touchtyping Dvorak, I couldn't "cheat" by looking at the keys anymore. For the first 2 days, I printed the Dvorak layout on a sheet of paper that I put beside my keyboard, and I'd refer to that only when I didn't know a key. After that, I scrapped the paper and was typing very slow but autonomously. My habit of looking at the keyboard died a quick death because my keyboard had Qwerty printed on it and thus was useless! I don't see why you say Emacs is a nightmare in Dvorak, because the key combinations are based on mnemonics, not physical key location. Ever tried Dvorak in vi? Now THAT is a problem. I bought a TypeMatrix 2030 and with some remappings, it's a charm to use Emacs with it. In particular, I can press CTRL with my left thumb, so if for example I have to type C-x C-f (qwerty equivalent: C-b C-y), I don't have to switch between the right and left CTRL keys, I just press and hold CTRL and then type x and f. By the way, I bought a Qwerty-labelled version so I wouldn't be tempted to start looking at the keys again :) If they had a blank version I would have bought that. You ask for a Dvorak-friendly editor, but I think you should be looking for a keyboard-layout-agnostic editor. In my experience, Emacs is one such editor.
- kul 19y agoi do. felt tingling in wrists so decided to switch in may. PC also uses it. It wrecked my brain for a while. i use it with the kinesis keyboard.
- daniel-cussen 19y agoHells yeah, switched a few weeks ago. It's awesome.
- psb 19y agoI've used it for the last 5 years or so. I used to have to sleep with the wrist braces - I can't be certain that dvorak has made a big difference but it seems to help
- robmnl 19y agoUsing it, for two years, with vim. First two weeks were hard.
- Alex3917 19y agoI've been using Dvorak for about seven years. I'd recommend using ABCD to learn: http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/ http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/
- jmilton 19y agoaoeuidhtns! I've used Dvorak for at least six years now. Love it. For anyone interested in learning, I found that the best sites were: http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/ http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/ http://dvorak.nl/learn.plp http://dvorak.nl/learn.plp and the program KP Typing Tutor (great dvorak exercises). interesting comparison tool: http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/ http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/ How about the awesomeness of the dvorak home row? 3269 Scrabble words (OSPD) can be typed on the home row, including nine 15-letter words (such as tendentiousness) 206 for asdfkhjkl. Longest: halakhahs and haggadahs _____ Estimated finger travel distance (horizontal) for all of the above text QWERTY: 15.3m Dvorak: 10.5m
- tokipin 19y agoDvorak: been using it for a few years. i switched to it cold turkey. one thing that can screw you up is touching qwerty after switching, something you don't really need to do. dvorak is implemented as a language and comes standard in most OS's, so the excuse that "it will be difficult when using someone else's computer" is a poor one. some people can probably learn to use both layouts without too much trouble... i'm not one of those people, and i would advise against trying to use both, as learning dvorak will be much more difficult qwerty is simply atrocious. the semicolon key says it all. who the fuck puts a semicolon key on the home row? i've heard various explanations for the retarded layout but i think it's just retardation. even the story of how it was to balance the hammers for typewriters to minimize collision seems retarded since the manufacturers could have switched around the letters on the hammers themselves something that people miss is that dvorak is about comfort, not speed. sure, someone who is good at typing will probably be substantially faster on dvorak then on qwerty, but for me at least it's all about comfort. though i do type quite a bit faster than i did on qwerty re: Vi, it wasn't hard switching at all. one thing i learned to do was use 'ce' (replace to end of word) rather than 'cw' (replace word) since c and w are on the same finger in dvorak specifically i use programmer dvorak http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ which leaves the basic dvorak alphabet unchanged but switches around the symbols. instead of `1234567890-= the top row is $&[{}(=* )+]!#. the numbers are shifted i took things a step further and started using a program called AutoHotkey: http://www.autohotkey.com/ http://www.autohotkey.com/ i have LAlt + C mapped to Esc, LAlt + H to Backspace, LAlt + T to Enter, Caps and Enter to Ctrl, and RAlt to Caps. these are global, not just for Vim Ergonomic Keyboard: i use a microsoft ergonomic: http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Natural-Ergo-Keyboard-4000/dp/B000A6PPOK/ http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Natural-Ergo-Keyboard-4000/d... i'm surprised these aren't much more popular. it's probably because of patents or something, or people don't realize how much better they are. they are as much an improvement over regular keyboards as dvorak is over qwerty. dvorak + ergonomic keyboard will get you FAR in terms of comfort i also use a wacom tablet instead of a mouse. i've never had any wrist pain or anything with this setup. i'm anal about comfort for the same reason i use Vim rather than a silly IDE. i figure if i'm going to be typing and using a computer so much, generally hours a day for the rest of my life, then the tools i use are extremely important and it's worth it to invest in the best ones
- mightybyte 19y agoYes, I've been using Dvorak exclusively for a year or two. Vim was annoying at first, but it's really not too bad. Even if you don't remap the keys the new locations of hjkl make reasonable sense. My question for you Dvorak users is how easily can you switch back and forth between it and qwerty? I can do it without much trouble, but I know another guy who has a very hard time switching. I'm curious what the general trend is.
- rw 19y agoI learned Dvorak in high school, used it for about three months. Ultimately, I went back to qwerty because I, too, have an incredibly hard time switching between the two. I wasn't about to restrict myself to only using Dvorak-enabled computers.
- Xichekolas 19y agoI can switch back and forth quite easily. I use dvorak the vast majority of the time, but when I play games I use qwerty because remapping all the hotkeys just takes too long. (And it's hard to hit the right key when you glance down and see the wrong letter in a game.) Since most online games require a lot of chatting, I have lots of practice actually typing real stuff in both fairly quickly.
- nostrademons 19y agoI had a tough time initially. I basically lost the ability to type qwerty without looking at the keys for about 6 months. Then I started gaining it back on an OS-by-OS basis: I was conditioned so that if I was looking at a Gnome desktop (school computer labs) I'd type Qwerty, yet on a WinXP desktop I'd type Dvorak. Then it went to app-by-app: I'd type Dvorak on Word and AIM, but Qwerty on Eclipse and a few other Linux apps. And then I became fluent in both keyboard layout and can can basically touch type on either. Still need to switch into Qwerty for some games, though, because their keybindings don't make any sense. It's also really annoying on typing tests that have you type "hjkl" over and over again. vi was never a problem, because I learned the keybindings on Dvorak first, though I might have trouble if I sat down at a Qwerty terminal with it.
- a-priori 19y ago
- yters 19y agoI find it alot more comfortable. I can also type a bit faster. After years of QWERTY, I measured my speed right before I switched and I could hit 78 wpm. Now, after about 2 years of Dvorak I can hit 90 wpm.
- mdaconta 19y agoI have been using the Dvorak keyboard since around 1995 ... here is a short guide I right on the switch on an old mac using a dot-matrix printer! :) On editors, most on Windows and Mac are fine because the keyboard mappings are switched at the OS level. So, I don't think it's a problem. Sometimes key-binds in apps are not matched but not often. I do not use a dvorak-in-hardware keyboard. I just don't look at the keys. Best wishes, - Mike
- richardw 19y agoI use the "programmer dvorak" layout. Nicer for {} etc etc, initially scary for numbers but you get used to it. All dvorak sucks for ctrl-c/v/x.
- MikeW 19y agoI switched to dvorak for a few weeks a few summers ago. Initially typing every single word was insanely frustrating, and it didn't get much better for me. I've been using QWERTY for 18 years and I continue to stick with it simply because it's familiar and I'm surrounded by machines all day every day that don't allow me to change the keyboard layout. Alternating between keyboard layouts several times every day is just not worth the frustration for me.
- BrandonM 19y agoDVORAK is remarkably easy to learn, all things considered. I just started today after checking out jmilton's links, and while the going is a bit slow, it's not as bad as I expected. I'm not sure yet if it will really be beneficial, but I figure I'll give it a shot for two reasons: 1. I like to challenge myself. I'm currently learning to play Guitar Hero left-handed, and it's been interesting. This is along those same lines, but it might actually benefit me. 2. It will be fun to mess with my friends when they try to use my computer. In my limited usage so far, yes, the typing is slow. It's really frustrating that I can no longer type as fast as I can think. The hardest thing, however, seems to be re-learning applications' keyboard shortcuts. If Firefox and GMail is hard, what's vim going to be like? (This message was typed using DVORAK.)
- BrandonM 19y agoAfter some more research, I think Colemak (http://colemak.com/ http://colemak.com/) is going to be a better alternative. The bottom row stays the nearly the same, which means that a lot of the common application shortcut keys remain the same. It's also based on more modern, computer-assisted research into English word frequencies. One cool idea it uses is to change Caps Lock to Backspace. I'm still worried about vim, though. One nice side effect of my planned switch to Colemak is that I now have a legitimate reason to put off learning Emacs. After my switch to Colemak is complete, I'll try to tackle SLIME.