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It's easy to show how complex those systems are. It's easy because they are complex. And that's pretty normal. Let someone talk about Java Enterprise developmen

It's easy to show how complex those systems are. It's easy because they are complex. And that's pretty normal. Let someone talk about Java Enterprise development, the symptoms of your body and their diagnoses or just try to explain how to build a pencil (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil). We're professionals, after all, and TypeScript and React were not build by some teenage hackers. I think the problem is that everybody remembers how they build that one website using jQuery in the early 2000s and now wonders why everything's so complex now. The reason is that we started to build complex applications instead of enhancing grandma's blog using jQuery.animate, get over it. And if a software developer talks about all of this tools in the same manner you've described, he has poor social skills, nothing related to the tooling. He could also talk about the intricacies of scaling web services using k8s and OpenStack and you'll find another bunch of tools and concepts. If someone would actually talk like you've described it, he would play buzzword bingo in any domain of expertise like medicine students who want to sound smart using latin words.

andreime 10y ago
I like how you phrased this. I have a similar feeling about this but I couldn't express it so clearly.
raverbashing 10y ago
> We're professionals, after all, and TypeScript and React were not build by some teenage hackers. Overall correct > The reason is that we started to build complex applications instead of enhancing grandma's blog using jQuery.animate, get over it. And this is where we disagree Complexity is needed sometimes, needless complexity only brings the overall value down If I want to do a website using Django I need to get: Django. Period. I may need some other libraries, but they're much fewer than any basic node.js project, even with things like Flask I have one package manager: pip. It works With express.js you need a library to parse an HTTP request body ffs. https://github.com/expressjs/body-parser https://github.com/expressjs/body-parser
- marrs 10y ago
  and that's how you can use express.js to run a service that uses a different protocol to HTTP. Express is one of the easiest libraries to learn in any programming language. It's certainly much easier to learn than Django, at least in part because it doesn't include the kitchen sink
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    > and that's how you can use express.js to run a service that uses a different protocol to HTTP. Excuses, excuses. Good defaults are important. 99.99% of developers won't care about it. Getting form data is Web development 101
    - veeti 10y ago
      > Getting form data is Web development 101 Is it? Certainly the latest hipster microservice only deals with JSON bodies.
      - raverbashing 10y ago
        To which you still need the body-parser module, I don't see your point
    - marrs 10y ago
      Let me try again: you might not be using Express to develop a website. If you are, install the meta-package, or create one. Now you have your defaults.
- veeti 10y ago
  > I have one package manager: pip. It works Funny, because this is not the general sentiment in the Python community. See links like [1], [2], [3]. Thankfully, things are improving. [1] http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2012/6/22/hate-hate-hate-everywhere/ http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2012/6/22/hate-hate-hate-everywhere/ [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/zrm3h/there_have_been_a_string_of_posts_on_packaging/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/zrm3h/there_have_be... [3] https://blog.ionelmc.ro/2015/02/24/the-problem-with-packaging-in-python/ https://blog.ionelmc.ro/2015/02/24/the-problem-with-packagin...
ggregoire 10y ago
Exactly. When I read those comments on HN, I'm really curious to know how people think you can build, scale and maintain a web app like Facebook. Do they think you can achieve it like in 2006, with a single scrip.js containing 100 000 lines of jQuery soup? jQuery is fine for any web site or small web apps, but as soon as you reach the 2000 LOC, it's crazy to continue with it.
sickbeard 10y ago
You don't need complex tools to build complex systems. The rapid pace of change in the javascript world is what he's poking fun at.
vcarl 10y ago
> We're professionals, after all, and TypeScript and React were not build by some teenage hackers. On the other hand, Babel was :) He did a great writeup of his life during babel's explosion of popularity. https://medium.com/@sebmck/2015-in-review-51ac7035e272#.nmefffc4x https://medium.com/@sebmck/2015-in-review-51ac7035e272#.nmef...
- throwmenow_0139 10y ago
  Thanks for the link, his story is great! I'm convinced that compilers and formal languages are the core fundamentals of computer science, amazing that he got into it so young.
- mf2hd 10y ago
  Thanks for the link, great story.
lucb1e 10y ago
Compiling a C project from sources for the first time (which was maybe five years ago and had a bunch of dependencies too) took me less time than it's currently taking me to read up on an overview of all these frameworks/libraries/technologies, let alone actually learn any of them.

andreime 10y ago

I like how you phrased this. I have a similar feeling about this but I couldn't express it so clearly.

raverbashing 10y ago

> We're professionals, after all, and TypeScript and React were not build by some teenage hackers. Overall correct > The reason is that we started to build complex applications instead of enhancing grandma's blog using jQuery.animate, get over it. And this is where we disagree Complexity is needed sometimes, needless complexity only brings the overall value down If I want to do a website using Django I need to get: Django. Period. I may need some other libraries, but they're much fewer than any basic node.js project, even with things like Flask I have one package manager: pip. It works With express.js you need a library to parse an HTTP request body ffs. https://github.com/expressjs/body-parser https://github.com/expressjs/body-parser

marrs 10y ago
and that's how you can use express.js to run a service that uses a different protocol to HTTP. Express is one of the easiest libraries to learn in any programming language. It's certainly much easier to learn than Django, at least in part because it doesn't include the kitchen sink
- raverbashing 10y ago
  > and that's how you can use express.js to run a service that uses a different protocol to HTTP. Excuses, excuses. Good defaults are important. 99.99% of developers won't care about it. Getting form data is Web development 101
  - veeti 10y ago
    > Getting form data is Web development 101 Is it? Certainly the latest hipster microservice only deals with JSON bodies.
    - raverbashing 10y ago
      To which you still need the body-parser module, I don't see your point
  - marrs 10y ago
    Let me try again: you might not be using Express to develop a website. If you are, install the meta-package, or create one. Now you have your defaults.
veeti 10y ago
> I have one package manager: pip. It works Funny, because this is not the general sentiment in the Python community. See links like [1], [2], [3]. Thankfully, things are improving. [1] http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2012/6/22/hate-hate-hate-everywhere/ http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2012/6/22/hate-hate-hate-everywhere/ [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/zrm3h/there_have_been_a_string_of_posts_on_packaging/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/zrm3h/there_have_be... [3] https://blog.ionelmc.ro/2015/02/24/the-problem-with-packaging-in-python/ https://blog.ionelmc.ro/2015/02/24/the-problem-with-packagin...

ggregoire 10y ago

Exactly. When I read those comments on HN, I'm really curious to know how people think you can build, scale and maintain a web app like Facebook. Do they think you can achieve it like in 2006, with a single scrip.js containing 100 000 lines of jQuery soup? jQuery is fine for any web site or small web apps, but as soon as you reach the 2000 LOC, it's crazy to continue with it.

sickbeard 10y ago

You don't need complex tools to build complex systems. The rapid pace of change in the javascript world is what he's poking fun at.

vcarl 10y ago

> We're professionals, after all, and TypeScript and React were not build by some teenage hackers. On the other hand, Babel was :) He did a great writeup of his life during babel's explosion of popularity. https://medium.com/@sebmck/2015-in-review-51ac7035e272#.nmefffc4x https://medium.com/@sebmck/2015-in-review-51ac7035e272#.nmef...

throwmenow_0139 10y ago
Thanks for the link, his story is great! I'm convinced that compilers and formal languages are the core fundamentals of computer science, amazing that he got into it so young.
mf2hd 10y ago
Thanks for the link, great story.

lucb1e 10y ago

Compiling a C project from sources for the first time (which was maybe five years ago and had a bunch of dependencies too) took me less time than it's currently taking me to read up on an overview of all these frameworks/libraries/technologies, let alone actually learn any of them.