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We can easily find just the same complaints about train fares over here, where the service is handled by a government monopoly. I can fly to Italy for a cheap

We can easily find just the same complaints about train fares over here, where the service is handled by a government monopoly. I can fly to Italy for a cheaper price than taking a train across the country. But for Britain, here's actual regulator data: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/21591/rail-fares-index-january-2016.pdf http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/21591/rail-far...

crdoconnor 10y ago
That "actual" data has no 'actual' prices and is only about the difference from the previous year. This compares actual prices with the rest of Europe (from 2009, but still relevant): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/4691153/Britain-has-most-expensive-train-fares-in-Europe.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/46... Is 4x higher prices a reasonable reflection of the higher cost of doing business in the UK or simply price gouging? What do you think? But hey, as your report points out people are relatively happy with the level of information provision by station staff. So it's fine.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Since we go to cherry-picking, yes, it could be that 4x price difference reflects rather well the cost structure differences between London's commuter region and that of Bucharest or Ljubljana. What would help this discussion would be to see stats of how fares, delays/cancellations and customer service satisfaction have developed since 1990. Not everyone agrees that privatisation was so bad. Wikipedia: Former Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen general secretary Lew Adams moved to work for Virgin Trains, and said on a 2004 radio phone-in program: "All the time it was in the public sector, all we got were cuts, cuts, cuts. And today there are more members in the trade union, more train drivers, and more trains running. The reality is that it worked, we’ve protected jobs, and we got more jobs." At least the popularity of train travel has increased: the number of passenger kilometres has nearly doubled in Britain between 2000 and 2014 (from 38.2 billion km to 62.4 billion km). https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482736/rai0103.xls https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    >Since we go to cherry-picking, yes, it could be that 4x price difference reflects rather well the cost structure differences between London's commuter region and that of Bucharest or Ljubljana. It might, yes, which is why the ~12x (not sure of the exact difference but it's an order of magnitude for sure) difference in average price between London and Bucharest train prices is so outrageous. >Not everyone agrees that privatisation was so bad. No, the people who profited from it don't. >Former Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen general secretary Lew Adams moved to work for Virgin Trains, and said on a 2004 radio phone-in program: "All the time it was in the public sector, all we got were cuts, cuts, cuts. And today there are more members in the trade union, more train drivers, and more trains running. The reality is that it worked, we’ve protected jobs, and we got more jobs." This is all part of the privatization playbook - #1 defund public services, #2 say "aren't things shit? privatization will fix this!" #3 privatize. It's happening right now with the USPS. It happened to the UK post office a few years ago. Once privatized you've got a licence to price gouge. >At least the popularity of train travel has increased: the number of passenger kilometres has nearly doubled in Britain between 2000 and 2014 People commute longer and from further away due to rising house prices. It's not like people are suddenly bigger fans of getting on a train these days and getting up at 5 in the morning to go to work.
    - UK-AL 10y ago
      Your always going to get issues with cuts, financial issues in the public sector. It's very political, and will always be at the whim of the political parties. It's quite hard to argue for more spending. It's an advantage of being in the private sector.
      - crdoconnor 10y ago
        It's not an advantage of being in the private sector at all. If the TOCs weren't being regulated they'd cut as much if not more than the public sector while jacking up prices at the same time. This is pretty much what happened during the Californian electricity crisis (brownouts!). It's not hard to argue for more spending to the public. The public want that. It's hard because the political system is rigged against politicians who do so (for an example see all of the dirty tricks campaigns levied against Corbyn).

crdoconnor 10y ago

That "actual" data has no 'actual' prices and is only about the difference from the previous year. This compares actual prices with the rest of Europe (from 2009, but still relevant): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/4691153/Britain-has-most-expensive-train-fares-in-Europe.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/46... Is 4x higher prices a reasonable reflection of the higher cost of doing business in the UK or simply price gouging? What do you think? But hey, as your report points out people are relatively happy with the level of information provision by station staff. So it's fine.

ptaipale 10y ago
Since we go to cherry-picking, yes, it could be that 4x price difference reflects rather well the cost structure differences between London's commuter region and that of Bucharest or Ljubljana. What would help this discussion would be to see stats of how fares, delays/cancellations and customer service satisfaction have developed since 1990. Not everyone agrees that privatisation was so bad. Wikipedia: Former Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen general secretary Lew Adams moved to work for Virgin Trains, and said on a 2004 radio phone-in program: "All the time it was in the public sector, all we got were cuts, cuts, cuts. And today there are more members in the trade union, more train drivers, and more trains running. The reality is that it worked, we’ve protected jobs, and we got more jobs." At least the popularity of train travel has increased: the number of passenger kilometres has nearly doubled in Britain between 2000 and 2014 (from 38.2 billion km to 62.4 billion km). https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482736/rai0103.xls https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  >Since we go to cherry-picking, yes, it could be that 4x price difference reflects rather well the cost structure differences between London's commuter region and that of Bucharest or Ljubljana. It might, yes, which is why the ~12x (not sure of the exact difference but it's an order of magnitude for sure) difference in average price between London and Bucharest train prices is so outrageous. >Not everyone agrees that privatisation was so bad. No, the people who profited from it don't. >Former Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen general secretary Lew Adams moved to work for Virgin Trains, and said on a 2004 radio phone-in program: "All the time it was in the public sector, all we got were cuts, cuts, cuts. And today there are more members in the trade union, more train drivers, and more trains running. The reality is that it worked, we’ve protected jobs, and we got more jobs." This is all part of the privatization playbook - #1 defund public services, #2 say "aren't things shit? privatization will fix this!" #3 privatize. It's happening right now with the USPS. It happened to the UK post office a few years ago. Once privatized you've got a licence to price gouge. >At least the popularity of train travel has increased: the number of passenger kilometres has nearly doubled in Britain between 2000 and 2014 People commute longer and from further away due to rising house prices. It's not like people are suddenly bigger fans of getting on a train these days and getting up at 5 in the morning to go to work.
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    Your always going to get issues with cuts, financial issues in the public sector. It's very political, and will always be at the whim of the political parties. It's quite hard to argue for more spending. It's an advantage of being in the private sector.
    - crdoconnor 10y ago
      It's not an advantage of being in the private sector at all. If the TOCs weren't being regulated they'd cut as much if not more than the public sector while jacking up prices at the same time. This is pretty much what happened during the Californian electricity crisis (brownouts!). It's not hard to argue for more spending to the public. The public want that. It's hard because the political system is rigged against politicians who do so (for an example see all of the dirty tricks campaigns levied against Corbyn).