3 ms·

Actually, British passengers seem to be the second-most happy railway users within EU. [0] I'm from the happiest country of railway users (Finland), and I can

Actually, British passengers seem to be the second-most happy railway users within EU. [0] I'm from the happiest country of railway users (Finland), and I can tell you that also here, lots of people complain about the national railway service, both about reliability, speed and price. ([1] is a joke on announcements of VR, the train operator, about four seasonal outages in train service due to spring, summer, autumns and winter (clockwise).) And the (government-owned) railway company here offers train travel that is more expensive than in Britain (just checked my most recent trip, 37 € is the cheapest fare for a 250 km distance that is equivalent to London-Manchester). [0] http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_382a_sum_en.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_382a_sum_en.pdf [1] http://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Juna-kulkee/176387 http://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Juna-kulkee/176387

crdoconnor 10y ago
The words "price" and "cost" do not appear once in the cited document on public opinion about national railway services. Do you not wonder why they didn't ask?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Nor did you point us to actual data on the prices. There is a quick comparison: http://budgettraveller.org/uk-trains-cheap/ http://budgettraveller.org/uk-trains-cheap/ And a more thorough one, but a bit old (2009): http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/fares__ticketing_study_1_report_.pdf http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/fares__ticketi... The point with UK train travel is that 1) commuting to London is expensive (not that surprising considering how congested it is) and 2) if you book in advance, travel is cheaper than in comparable European countries. If you purchase ticket in the train, it is more expensive.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    >Nor did you point us to actual data on the prices. I live it. Take it from me: the fact that somebody could try and judge how people felt about our train service and "forget" to ask about prices is kind of like hearing somebody say that Guantanamo is not so bad because the weather's nice. I don't even travel on trains much these days because it's so expensive - I check on the odd occasion but I usually I go by coach, horrible though it is. The dominant coach operating company has recognized this and bumped up their prices too. >There is a quick comparison This quick comparison points out that if you are willing to travel when nobody else is travelling you can fix your travel plans twelve weeks in advance then you can get a fare I would describe as "sort of reasonable". If you do the same kind of wrangling to get a flight you can end up flying half way across europe for 10 pounds. That 19 pound ticket to the airport still isn't exactly cheap, it's just not, well... You might note that author of that article used the exact same phrase I did to describe prices the rest of the time: eye watering. The best part is that many of those "cheap fares" are only there because the regulators force the operating companies to show them (they would be gone in an instant if there weren't a legal requirement for them to exist) and they are often very well concealed and useless for most people's needs. If privatization weren't being kept on a very, very, very long leash it might be even worse. >The point with UK train travel is that Is that it is privatized and the rail operating companies are ripping us off blind. End of story. >if you book in advance You can get a flight for 10 pounds and still end up spending twice that on your train to the airport, booked just as far in advance. Yay?
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      We can easily find just the same complaints about train fares over here, where the service is handled by a government monopoly. I can fly to Italy for a cheaper price than taking a train across the country. But for Britain, here's actual regulator data: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/21591/rail-fares-index-january-2016.pdf http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/21591/rail-far...
      - crdoconnor 10y ago
        That "actual" data has no 'actual' prices and is only about the difference from the previous year. This compares actual prices with the rest of Europe (from 2009, but still relevant): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/4691153/Britain-has-most-expensive-train-fares-in-Europe.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/46... Is 4x higher prices a reasonable reflection of the higher cost of doing business in the UK or simply price gouging? What do you think? But hey, as your report points out people are relatively happy with the level of information provision by station staff. So it's fine.
        ptaipale 10y ago
        Since we go to cherry-picking, yes, it could be that 4x price difference reflects rather well the cost structure differences between London's commuter region and that of Bucharest or Ljubljana. What would help this discussion would be to see stats of how fares, delays/cancellations and customer service satisfaction have developed since 1990. Not everyone agrees that privatisation was so bad. Wikipedia: Former Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen general secretary Lew Adams moved to work for Virgin Trains, and said on a 2004 radio phone-in program: "All the time it was in the public sector, all we got were cuts, cuts, cuts. And today there are more members in the trade union, more train drivers, and more trains running. The reality is that it worked, we’ve protected jobs, and we got more jobs." At least the popularity of train travel has increased: the number of passenger kilometres has nearly doubled in Britain between 2000 and 2014 (from 38.2 billion km to 62.4 billion km). https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482736/rai0103.xls https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

crdoconnor 10y ago

The words "price" and "cost" do not appear once in the cited document on public opinion about national railway services. Do you not wonder why they didn't ask?

ptaipale 10y ago
Nor did you point us to actual data on the prices. There is a quick comparison: http://budgettraveller.org/uk-trains-cheap/ http://budgettraveller.org/uk-trains-cheap/ And a more thorough one, but a bit old (2009): http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/fares__ticketing_study_1_report_.pdf http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/fares__ticketi... The point with UK train travel is that 1) commuting to London is expensive (not that surprising considering how congested it is) and 2) if you book in advance, travel is cheaper than in comparable European countries. If you purchase ticket in the train, it is more expensive.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  >Nor did you point us to actual data on the prices. I live it. Take it from me: the fact that somebody could try and judge how people felt about our train service and "forget" to ask about prices is kind of like hearing somebody say that Guantanamo is not so bad because the weather's nice. I don't even travel on trains much these days because it's so expensive - I check on the odd occasion but I usually I go by coach, horrible though it is. The dominant coach operating company has recognized this and bumped up their prices too. >There is a quick comparison This quick comparison points out that if you are willing to travel when nobody else is travelling you can fix your travel plans twelve weeks in advance then you can get a fare I would describe as "sort of reasonable". If you do the same kind of wrangling to get a flight you can end up flying half way across europe for 10 pounds. That 19 pound ticket to the airport still isn't exactly cheap, it's just not, well... You might note that author of that article used the exact same phrase I did to describe prices the rest of the time: eye watering. The best part is that many of those "cheap fares" are only there because the regulators force the operating companies to show them (they would be gone in an instant if there weren't a legal requirement for them to exist) and they are often very well concealed and useless for most people's needs. If privatization weren't being kept on a very, very, very long leash it might be even worse. >The point with UK train travel is that Is that it is privatized and the rail operating companies are ripping us off blind. End of story. >if you book in advance You can get a flight for 10 pounds and still end up spending twice that on your train to the airport, booked just as far in advance. Yay?
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    We can easily find just the same complaints about train fares over here, where the service is handled by a government monopoly. I can fly to Italy for a cheaper price than taking a train across the country. But for Britain, here's actual regulator data: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/21591/rail-fares-index-january-2016.pdf http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/21591/rail-far...
    - crdoconnor 10y ago
      That "actual" data has no 'actual' prices and is only about the difference from the previous year. This compares actual prices with the rest of Europe (from 2009, but still relevant): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/4691153/Britain-has-most-expensive-train-fares-in-Europe.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/46... Is 4x higher prices a reasonable reflection of the higher cost of doing business in the UK or simply price gouging? What do you think? But hey, as your report points out people are relatively happy with the level of information provision by station staff. So it's fine.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        Since we go to cherry-picking, yes, it could be that 4x price difference reflects rather well the cost structure differences between London's commuter region and that of Bucharest or Ljubljana. What would help this discussion would be to see stats of how fares, delays/cancellations and customer service satisfaction have developed since 1990. Not everyone agrees that privatisation was so bad. Wikipedia: Former Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen general secretary Lew Adams moved to work for Virgin Trains, and said on a 2004 radio phone-in program: "All the time it was in the public sector, all we got were cuts, cuts, cuts. And today there are more members in the trade union, more train drivers, and more trains running. The reality is that it worked, we’ve protected jobs, and we got more jobs." At least the popularity of train travel has increased: the number of passenger kilometres has nearly doubled in Britain between 2000 and 2014 (from 38.2 billion km to 62.4 billion km). https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482736/rai0103.xls https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...