7 ms·

Apple to developers: We're no longer suicidal

93 points by ahoyhere 17y ago

chc 17y ago
This isn't a bad article, but it's not a very smart article either. The ideas are essentially the same ones people have been repeating for days, it takes a long time to express these ideas we've already heard and it employs even less logic and methodology than many writers (for example, John Gruber) in coming to its conclusions. Not trying to be excessively negative or anything — it just seems very much like a "me too." Does anybody else see an original idea here?
- Psyonic 17y ago
  I thought the article was mostly useless. It's summed up by this paragraph, "Today, Apple is more concerned about having to re-live its recent history — getting jerked around by Microsoft or held hostage by Adobe — than what it thinks would be manageable damage by a few developers that may leave its platform. Some may regard that as being arrogant. For Apple it’s the price of being in charge of its own destiny. To capitulate at the height of its newly found vigor would be suicidal." Which doesn't even attempt to address why requiring all programs be originally developed in objc,c, or c++ is a good way to prevent being held hostage by Adobe, and nor does it address the huge repercussions it could have. It's not a "few" developers that would be effected by this change if its strictly enforced. It's practically every 3d game on the market. In short, a lot of words, not a lot of content.
  - ynniv 17y ago
    doesn't even attempt to address why requiring all programs be originally developed in objc,c, or c++ is a good way to prevent being held hostage by Adobe Sure it does - it provides a legal footing for denying apps based on Flash. That pretty much prevents Adobe and Microsoft from establishing a mobile platform that would nor does it address the huge repercussions it could have. There have been a lot of keys struck in anger since this was announced, and I find it to be too naïve. Apple would never enforce such a clause against something that was beneficial to them. So far, there have been no killer apps in the mobile space (sorry guys). While I enjoy the massively discounted offerings on the AppStore, the core OS and applications that Apple provides are the only things that affect my device buying decision. When someone makes a killer app that cannot be released on the AppStore, then this will matter. Until then... Sorry, no one was going to buy your Scheme-based app anyway.
    - chc 17y ago
      I'm having trouble following your logic. How do I determine whether a useful and nonthreatening program in the App Store is beneficial to Apple? It seems like it would go without saying that every good app is a boon, but you appear to imply that there's some threshold of "killer"-ness that needs to be breached before your contribution is beneficial (and by extension you are allowed to use whatever language you want). How is this determined? Further, since you state that an app must be "killer" to be beneficial, and that there are no killer apps in the store, does this mean that Apple derives no benefit at all from the App Store? Because that seems like a pretty absurd claim.
    - Psyonic 17y ago
      "Sure it does - it provides a legal footing for denying apps based on Flash. That pretty much prevents Adobe and Microsoft from establishing a mobile platform that would" A legal footing? Do they really need more than they already had? They were already arbitrarily rejecting apps they didn't like, why couldn't they continue doing that? And games are a killer app for many people, and Unity3D is potentially affected by this. So while you personally may not care, don't assume other people don't have legitimate reasons for caring. Is it possible they will only selectively enforce this? Of course! But if they only intended to go after flash apps, why bother with the clause at all? Why not just reject all Flash apps?
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
jxcole 17y ago
Could they at least acknowledge the fact that they intentionally destroyed an adobe product for no real reason? I would be much more interested in hearing why they thought Flash CS5's export to IPhone capability shouldn't go to market rather than about how apple is "the good guy". The laundry list of things apple has done well were particularly infuriating. Take any company, no matter how destitute, and they could easily have marketers spin up a list such as this. Microsoft, Adobe, and Google have done at least as many things right over the years. In either case, they really skirted the issue at hand. It is true that adobe literally said "Screw you apple". But sticks and stones can only do so much. Just consider what Apple threw their way. And we shouldn't forget all of the open source projects that have gone down because of Apple's lazy cannon ball.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- chc 17y ago
  Considering how poorly Adobe has treated non-Windows platforms for the past several years, I would accept "sheer spite" as an answer to why they're screwing over Adobe. The better question is why Apple would do this to all other developers as well.
  - pyre 17y ago
    I'm more interested in how Adobe is a competitor to Apple (in a Windows-vs-Mac way). Though there are a couple of areas that Apple and Adobe products compete, I would hardly say that it's in Apple's best interests to screw over Adobe. Do you think that the Apple faithful will be especially pleased if Adobe pulled all of their products from the Mac platform? I'm betting that it would tick off a fair amount of Apple users, who could direct their anger at Apple if they feel that Apple started the whole thing.
    - chc 17y ago
      Do you think Adobe stockholders would be particularly pleased if they pulled all of their products from the Mac platform? They would be burned at the stake. Apple isn't afraid of that happening because it isn't going to.
araneae 17y ago
This article says absolutely nothing about suicidal tendencies. His entire argument is that the iPhone is well-established. But plenty of people who seem to have it going for them are suicidal; just look at celebrities.
- cubicle67 17y ago
  er, I think you may have missed the point slightly
  - cubicle67 17y ago
    [edit: or that's some sort of bizarre sarcasm you're using]
itistoday 17y ago
Like all of the articles praising Apple's actions, this one focuses solely on the conflict between Apple and Adobe, as if that's all there was to it, as if those decrying Apple's actions are doing it out of love for Adobe and not because Apple's actions and public statements on the matter are inconsistent, hypocritical and are causing huge collateral damage to various companies and individuals who have nothing to do with Adobe or Flash or Microsoft and have only been adding value to the App Store. I found this piece on Ars Technica to be more insightful and closer to reality (i.e., outside of the Reality Distortion Field): http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/04/steve-jobs-weighs-on-iphone-os-dev-controversy.ars http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/04/steve-jobs-weighs-...
- wdewind 17y ago
  I agree with what was said below, it wasn't a great article, but you must not have read the entire thing. His main point is actually that Apple is providing a hell of a distribution platform for developers that is going to be very expensive to leave.
  - itistoday 17y ago
    I did read it, but you're right about what his main point was. I was mainly referring to the last two paragraphs. His main point boils down to, "Baby, look how sweet it is up in here, look at this bling bling, now shut up while I smack you about." Sure, I agree, Apple has a wonderful, beautiful setup. I don't think anyone disputes that, but I fail to see how that's supposed to make me respect their actions.
    - wdewind 17y ago
      Apple doesn't have a quantity problem, they have a quality problem. You don't have to respect anything, but not at a certain point it's like being pissed that you can't say fuck in an ad on television. These guys paid a lot of money to build an audience (of extremely high demographic value, mind you), and a platform for you to talk to it on and make money from it directly, sorry but you have to follow their rules.
qeorge 17y ago
Perhaps nitpicky, but I took issue with this: "No other vendor dominates mobile games like Apple now. With over 50,000 games in the App Store, it has 10 and 20 times what Nintendo and Sony offers respectively, and this before Apple’s Game Center has even shipped." The Nintendo DS is the best selling gaming system of all time, mobile or not. Its not even a competition - they've sold over 2x as many DS's as Apple has sold iPhones. Not to discredit the iPhone's success in any way, but no one has come close to toppling Nintendo off the gaming throne.
- Linear 17y ago
  To add to this, consider the number of online flash games there are. By the same logic the author is using, the best mobile gaming platform would be a laptop/netbook. This of course completely ignores the quality of these games and the advantages that dedicated gaming platforms like the DS and PSP have.
  - izendejas 17y ago
    Exactly! Quality not quantity, please. I'm not a big gamer, but it bothers me to read nonsense like the quote above. Some of the iphone/itouch games (or for that matter, other smartphone-based games) are garbage.
- Qz 17y ago
  Not sure if the article writer is American -- in many other countries 'mobile' is synonymous with cell phones, and thus 'mobile games' could be interpreted as 'cell phone games'.
  - travisp 17y ago
    The article writer can't mean this because he is comparing Apple to Nintendo. It would make no sense to do so if he meant the market that Apple is dominating to solely mean "cell phone games."
- hboon 17y ago
  If DS sales is 2x of iPhones, then Apple did beat them, because iPod touches sold more than iPhones (not sure by how much).
anonjon 17y ago
Well if apple thinks i'm going to write C code, they are mistaken. I don't do malloc.
tpiddy 17y ago
the only reason i'm jealous of people with iphones is they can play words with friends and turf wars, which all my friends play. apple knows if popular apps are easy to release on multiple systems at once, it will make their exclusive offerings less compelling.
Zak 17y ago
Apple's troubles in the mid '90s were not the fault of third-party developers. Windows NT was a better OS than classic Mac OS (and I was a Mac guy at the time). Macs of the day were uninspired and expensive. The recent switch to PowerPC had caused issues with a number of applications; most still worked, but it wasn't exactly fast. The phased introduction of PowerPC meant a lot of people considering new Macs waited, and some jumped ship. Apple's recovery didn't have anything to do with playing hardball with developers. Apple recovered because it started making better products. Apple can retain its position in the smartphone market by continuing to make the best product. All they'll get from acting like a bully is ill will.
- acg 17y ago
  Apple can retain its position in the smartphone market by continuing to make the best product. All they'll get from acting like a bully is ill will. I disagree, I think blocking flash is a good strategy for Apple. They stand to gain a lot and Ill will passes. If they are able to block the platform and kill it then people will quickly forget if they continue to grow their market share. Apple is not interested in allowing development multiple mobile operating systems easily. Apple sells a platform and they want as many exclusive applications as possible. Exclusive applications retains the value in the handset rather than elsewhere (for example the network). Apple does not the handset to be commodity hardware driving down profits. The applications and their delivery is the unique selling point: hence the advert "there's an app for everything". The hardware can be emulated.

93 points by ahoyhere 17y ago

chc 17y ago

This isn't a bad article, but it's not a very smart article either. The ideas are essentially the same ones people have been repeating for days, it takes a long time to express these ideas we've already heard and it employs even less logic and methodology than many writers (for example, John Gruber) in coming to its conclusions. Not trying to be excessively negative or anything — it just seems very much like a "me too." Does anybody else see an original idea here?

Psyonic 17y ago
I thought the article was mostly useless. It's summed up by this paragraph, "Today, Apple is more concerned about having to re-live its recent history — getting jerked around by Microsoft or held hostage by Adobe — than what it thinks would be manageable damage by a few developers that may leave its platform. Some may regard that as being arrogant. For Apple it’s the price of being in charge of its own destiny. To capitulate at the height of its newly found vigor would be suicidal." Which doesn't even attempt to address why requiring all programs be originally developed in objc,c, or c++ is a good way to prevent being held hostage by Adobe, and nor does it address the huge repercussions it could have. It's not a "few" developers that would be effected by this change if its strictly enforced. It's practically every 3d game on the market. In short, a lot of words, not a lot of content.
- ynniv 17y ago
  doesn't even attempt to address why requiring all programs be originally developed in objc,c, or c++ is a good way to prevent being held hostage by Adobe Sure it does - it provides a legal footing for denying apps based on Flash. That pretty much prevents Adobe and Microsoft from establishing a mobile platform that would nor does it address the huge repercussions it could have. There have been a lot of keys struck in anger since this was announced, and I find it to be too naïve. Apple would never enforce such a clause against something that was beneficial to them. So far, there have been no killer apps in the mobile space (sorry guys). While I enjoy the massively discounted offerings on the AppStore, the core OS and applications that Apple provides are the only things that affect my device buying decision. When someone makes a killer app that cannot be released on the AppStore, then this will matter. Until then... Sorry, no one was going to buy your Scheme-based app anyway.
  - chc 17y ago
    I'm having trouble following your logic. How do I determine whether a useful and nonthreatening program in the App Store is beneficial to Apple? It seems like it would go without saying that every good app is a boon, but you appear to imply that there's some threshold of "killer"-ness that needs to be breached before your contribution is beneficial (and by extension you are allowed to use whatever language you want). How is this determined? Further, since you state that an app must be "killer" to be beneficial, and that there are no killer apps in the store, does this mean that Apple derives no benefit at all from the App Store? Because that seems like a pretty absurd claim.
  - Psyonic 17y ago
    "Sure it does - it provides a legal footing for denying apps based on Flash. That pretty much prevents Adobe and Microsoft from establishing a mobile platform that would" A legal footing? Do they really need more than they already had? They were already arbitrarily rejecting apps they didn't like, why couldn't they continue doing that? And games are a killer app for many people, and Unity3D is potentially affected by this. So while you personally may not care, don't assume other people don't have legitimate reasons for caring. Is it possible they will only selectively enforce this? Of course! But if they only intended to go after flash apps, why bother with the clause at all? Why not just reject all Flash apps?
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

jxcole 17y ago

Could they at least acknowledge the fact that they intentionally destroyed an adobe product for no real reason? I would be much more interested in hearing why they thought Flash CS5's export to IPhone capability shouldn't go to market rather than about how apple is "the good guy". The laundry list of things apple has done well were particularly infuriating. Take any company, no matter how destitute, and they could easily have marketers spin up a list such as this. Microsoft, Adobe, and Google have done at least as many things right over the years. In either case, they really skirted the issue at hand. It is true that adobe literally said "Screw you apple". But sticks and stones can only do so much. Just consider what Apple threw their way. And we shouldn't forget all of the open source projects that have gone down because of Apple's lazy cannon ball.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
chc 17y ago
Considering how poorly Adobe has treated non-Windows platforms for the past several years, I would accept "sheer spite" as an answer to why they're screwing over Adobe. The better question is why Apple would do this to all other developers as well.
- pyre 17y ago
  I'm more interested in how Adobe is a competitor to Apple (in a Windows-vs-Mac way). Though there are a couple of areas that Apple and Adobe products compete, I would hardly say that it's in Apple's best interests to screw over Adobe. Do you think that the Apple faithful will be especially pleased if Adobe pulled all of their products from the Mac platform? I'm betting that it would tick off a fair amount of Apple users, who could direct their anger at Apple if they feel that Apple started the whole thing.
  - chc 17y ago
    Do you think Adobe stockholders would be particularly pleased if they pulled all of their products from the Mac platform? They would be burned at the stake. Apple isn't afraid of that happening because it isn't going to.

araneae 17y ago

This article says absolutely nothing about suicidal tendencies. His entire argument is that the iPhone is well-established. But plenty of people who seem to have it going for them are suicidal; just look at celebrities.

cubicle67 17y ago
er, I think you may have missed the point slightly
- cubicle67 17y ago
  [edit: or that's some sort of bizarre sarcasm you're using]

itistoday 17y ago

Like all of the articles praising Apple's actions, this one focuses solely on the conflict between Apple and Adobe, as if that's all there was to it, as if those decrying Apple's actions are doing it out of love for Adobe and not because Apple's actions and public statements on the matter are inconsistent, hypocritical and are causing huge collateral damage to various companies and individuals who have nothing to do with Adobe or Flash or Microsoft and have only been adding value to the App Store. I found this piece on Ars Technica to be more insightful and closer to reality (i.e., outside of the Reality Distortion Field): http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/04/steve-jobs-weighs-on-iphone-os-dev-controversy.ars http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/04/steve-jobs-weighs-...

wdewind 17y ago
I agree with what was said below, it wasn't a great article, but you must not have read the entire thing. His main point is actually that Apple is providing a hell of a distribution platform for developers that is going to be very expensive to leave.
- itistoday 17y ago
  I did read it, but you're right about what his main point was. I was mainly referring to the last two paragraphs. His main point boils down to, "Baby, look how sweet it is up in here, look at this bling bling, now shut up while I smack you about." Sure, I agree, Apple has a wonderful, beautiful setup. I don't think anyone disputes that, but I fail to see how that's supposed to make me respect their actions.
  - wdewind 17y ago
    Apple doesn't have a quantity problem, they have a quality problem. You don't have to respect anything, but not at a certain point it's like being pissed that you can't say fuck in an ad on television. These guys paid a lot of money to build an audience (of extremely high demographic value, mind you), and a platform for you to talk to it on and make money from it directly, sorry but you have to follow their rules.

qeorge 17y ago

Perhaps nitpicky, but I took issue with this: "No other vendor dominates mobile games like Apple now. With over 50,000 games in the App Store, it has 10 and 20 times what Nintendo and Sony offers respectively, and this before Apple’s Game Center has even shipped." The Nintendo DS is the best selling gaming system of all time, mobile or not. Its not even a competition - they've sold over 2x as many DS's as Apple has sold iPhones. Not to discredit the iPhone's success in any way, but no one has come close to toppling Nintendo off the gaming throne.

Linear 17y ago
To add to this, consider the number of online flash games there are. By the same logic the author is using, the best mobile gaming platform would be a laptop/netbook. This of course completely ignores the quality of these games and the advantages that dedicated gaming platforms like the DS and PSP have.
- izendejas 17y ago
  Exactly! Quality not quantity, please. I'm not a big gamer, but it bothers me to read nonsense like the quote above. Some of the iphone/itouch games (or for that matter, other smartphone-based games) are garbage.
Qz 17y ago
Not sure if the article writer is American -- in many other countries 'mobile' is synonymous with cell phones, and thus 'mobile games' could be interpreted as 'cell phone games'.
- travisp 17y ago
  The article writer can't mean this because he is comparing Apple to Nintendo. It would make no sense to do so if he meant the market that Apple is dominating to solely mean "cell phone games."
hboon 17y ago
If DS sales is 2x of iPhones, then Apple did beat them, because iPod touches sold more than iPhones (not sure by how much).

anonjon 17y ago

Well if apple thinks i'm going to write C code, they are mistaken. I don't do malloc.

tpiddy 17y ago

the only reason i'm jealous of people with iphones is they can play words with friends and turf wars, which all my friends play. apple knows if popular apps are easy to release on multiple systems at once, it will make their exclusive offerings less compelling.

Zak 17y ago

Apple's troubles in the mid '90s were not the fault of third-party developers. Windows NT was a better OS than classic Mac OS (and I was a Mac guy at the time). Macs of the day were uninspired and expensive. The recent switch to PowerPC had caused issues with a number of applications; most still worked, but it wasn't exactly fast. The phased introduction of PowerPC meant a lot of people considering new Macs waited, and some jumped ship. Apple's recovery didn't have anything to do with playing hardball with developers. Apple recovered because it started making better products. Apple can retain its position in the smartphone market by continuing to make the best product. All they'll get from acting like a bully is ill will.

acg 17y ago
Apple can retain its position in the smartphone market by continuing to make the best product. All they'll get from acting like a bully is ill will. I disagree, I think blocking flash is a good strategy for Apple. They stand to gain a lot and Ill will passes. If they are able to block the platform and kill it then people will quickly forget if they continue to grow their market share. Apple is not interested in allowing development multiple mobile operating systems easily. Apple sells a platform and they want as many exclusive applications as possible. Exclusive applications retains the value in the handset rather than elsewhere (for example the network). Apple does not the handset to be commodity hardware driving down profits. The applications and their delivery is the unique selling point: hence the advert "there's an app for everything". The hardware can be emulated.