5 ms·

Is it true that 12 year olds are more likely to pick up a machete than 30 year olds?

M_Grey 10y ago
In a general context, or in the context of what we're talking about here? In general, I don't know, in context... yes. You can get most kids on board with almost anything, and those you can't, you can generally abuse or otherwise force to submit. They're not set in their ways, they don't have as clear a sense of the world, and their impulse control usually stinks. There's a reason that everyone, for better or worse, wants to get to kids early, and often. Advertisers, religions, people trying to teach kids how to deal with advertisers and religions, militaries, etc... all see the value in "getting them young."
sidlls 10y ago
Humans are beastly, violent primates with marginal cognitive advantages over our cousins. Empathy is learned. I don't know if a 12 year old is more likely to kill than a 30 year old, but the former certainly has had much less social normalization toward empathy than the older one, other things being equal. Also kids are easily guided to do just about anything. They're easily impressed and even the brightest lack the experience to temper their judgement of what is a good idea versus what isn't.
- djtriptych 10y ago
  No, healthy people are born with empathy. Which is why childhood animal mutilation is a standard test for sociopathy.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > No, healthy people are born with empathy. Most of the reading I've done seems to suggest that that's something that's developed at a very young age, and very sensitive to early childhood environment, rather something people are born with.
    - djtriptych 10y ago
      It's a normal part of childhood development. The original comment suggests that hate is inborn and empathy is learned - no real evidence for that.
      - Retric 10y ago
        Empathy is a far more complex emotion.
        djtriptych 10y ago
        Dogs have empathy.
  - sidlls 10y ago
    No, healthy people learn empathy, they aren't born being empathetic. They should learn it very early, and certainly should demonstrate some empathy by the time pre-K rolls around.
    - sqeaky 10y ago
      This back and forth sounds a great deal like "NO U" being shouted on 4chan. Are there any sources, papers or studies indicating whether it is learned, innate or both? Sources and empiricism are what we should be resorting to, not down-votes.
      - sqeaky 10y ago
        A down-vote instead of a link, I don't know what I expected.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        You're not going to find a lot of people jumping through that hoop, given that 5 seconds with Google is all that it takes. This isn't some controversial developmental theory, and this isn't a formal debate.
        sqeaky 10y ago
        I am not taking sides. I may even have done some reading up already, but I want to remain neutral. I want to know why the people going back and forth think one way or the other. If I rely on my own research I might not get the nuance that a psychologist or other person with a vested interest would be able to share. There seems a great deal smoke but no light in this discussion. This is uncommon here on hacker news, normally sources are appreciated and I frequently see them brought in well before an argument begins, even on extremely casual topics. They often earn an few upvotes too.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    It's not a test, it's not diagnostic, it's part of a hypothetical triad of indicators, in the context of an adult's childhood history. You can't even diagnose a child as antisocial, at best you'd have "Conduct Disorder".
frandroid 10y ago
Well, trigger warning: discussion of child soldier recruitment, and deadly violence. Recruitment of child soldiers usually involves drugging the targets. 12 year olds are probably less susceptible to be able to realize that they're being drugged and to have the mental fortitude to retain their self through the grooming process. I suspect that even when drugged, a 30 year old will have a better sense of being drugged and is less likely to be brainwashed. There are also other shock-inducing factors that have a greater dislocating impact on 12 year olds, such as killing their parents (both it happening in front of them, and/or in some cases, them being forced to do it as part of the indoctrination process). I suspect that a 30 year old would be more likely to channel their anger at the "recruiter" than a 12 year old would.
- infinite8s 10y ago
  That is atrocious. Do you have any citations to back those up?
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    http://www.accord.org.za/conflict-trends/understanding-recruitment-child-soldiers-africa/ http://www.accord.org.za/conflict-trends/understanding-recru... https://www.hrw.org/news/2000/05/31/sierra-leone-rebels-forcefully-recruit-child-soldiers https://www.hrw.org/news/2000/05/31/sierra-leone-rebels-forc... https://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/effects-of-conflict/root-causes-of-child-soldiering/ https://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/effects-of-conflict/... http://www.unicef.org/sowc96/2csoldrs.htm http://www.unicef.org/sowc96/2csoldrs.htm https://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/effects-of-conflict/six-grave-violations/child-soldiers/ https://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/effects-of-conflict/...

In a general context, or in the context of what we're talking about here? In general, I don't know, in context... yes. You can get most kids on board with almost anything, and those you can't, you can generally abuse or otherwise force to submit. They're not set in their ways, they don't have as clear a sense of the world, and their impulse control usually stinks. There's a reason that everyone, for better or worse, wants to get to kids early, and often. Advertisers, religions, people trying to teach kids how to deal with advertisers and religions, militaries, etc... all see the value in "getting them young."

sidlls 10y ago

Humans are beastly, violent primates with marginal cognitive advantages over our cousins. Empathy is learned. I don't know if a 12 year old is more likely to kill than a 30 year old, but the former certainly has had much less social normalization toward empathy than the older one, other things being equal. Also kids are easily guided to do just about anything. They're easily impressed and even the brightest lack the experience to temper their judgement of what is a good idea versus what isn't.

djtriptych 10y ago
No, healthy people are born with empathy. Which is why childhood animal mutilation is a standard test for sociopathy.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > No, healthy people are born with empathy. Most of the reading I've done seems to suggest that that's something that's developed at a very young age, and very sensitive to early childhood environment, rather something people are born with.
  - djtriptych 10y ago
    It's a normal part of childhood development. The original comment suggests that hate is inborn and empathy is learned - no real evidence for that.
    - Retric 10y ago
      Empathy is a far more complex emotion.
      - djtriptych 10y ago
        Dogs have empathy.
- sidlls 10y ago
  No, healthy people learn empathy, they aren't born being empathetic. They should learn it very early, and certainly should demonstrate some empathy by the time pre-K rolls around.
  - sqeaky 10y ago
    This back and forth sounds a great deal like "NO U" being shouted on 4chan. Are there any sources, papers or studies indicating whether it is learned, innate or both? Sources and empiricism are what we should be resorting to, not down-votes.
    - sqeaky 10y ago
      A down-vote instead of a link, I don't know what I expected.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      You're not going to find a lot of people jumping through that hoop, given that 5 seconds with Google is all that it takes. This isn't some controversial developmental theory, and this isn't a formal debate.
      - sqeaky 10y ago
        I am not taking sides. I may even have done some reading up already, but I want to remain neutral. I want to know why the people going back and forth think one way or the other. If I rely on my own research I might not get the nuance that a psychologist or other person with a vested interest would be able to share. There seems a great deal smoke but no light in this discussion. This is uncommon here on hacker news, normally sources are appreciated and I frequently see them brought in well before an argument begins, even on extremely casual topics. They often earn an few upvotes too.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  It's not a test, it's not diagnostic, it's part of a hypothetical triad of indicators, in the context of an adult's childhood history. You can't even diagnose a child as antisocial, at best you'd have "Conduct Disorder".

frandroid 10y ago

Well, trigger warning: discussion of child soldier recruitment, and deadly violence. Recruitment of child soldiers usually involves drugging the targets. 12 year olds are probably less susceptible to be able to realize that they're being drugged and to have the mental fortitude to retain their self through the grooming process. I suspect that even when drugged, a 30 year old will have a better sense of being drugged and is less likely to be brainwashed. There are also other shock-inducing factors that have a greater dislocating impact on 12 year olds, such as killing their parents (both it happening in front of them, and/or in some cases, them being forced to do it as part of the indoctrination process). I suspect that a 30 year old would be more likely to channel their anger at the "recruiter" than a 12 year old would.

infinite8s 10y ago
That is atrocious. Do you have any citations to back those up?
- M_Grey 10y ago
  http://www.accord.org.za/conflict-trends/understanding-recruitment-child-soldiers-africa/ http://www.accord.org.za/conflict-trends/understanding-recru... https://www.hrw.org/news/2000/05/31/sierra-leone-rebels-forcefully-recruit-child-soldiers https://www.hrw.org/news/2000/05/31/sierra-leone-rebels-forc... https://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/effects-of-conflict/root-causes-of-child-soldiering/ https://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/effects-of-conflict/... http://www.unicef.org/sowc96/2csoldrs.htm http://www.unicef.org/sowc96/2csoldrs.htm https://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/effects-of-conflict/six-grave-violations/child-soldiers/ https://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/effects-of-conflict/...