5 ms·

Mostly, it sounds like you've just had bad experiences in the past, or you live in a place that makes life harder. I live in the US, make an average salary for

Mostly, it sounds like you've just had bad experiences in the past, or you live in a place that makes life harder. I live in the US, make an average salary for a software engineer, and live an incredibly comfortable life. I'm not going to retire at 30 or own a private yacht, but life isn't the dickensian struggle you present.

ido 17y ago
Sounds like it to me too. I never had to think too much about expenses as a (single, childless) programmer here in Vienna (which is not known for very good developer salaries). Looking at other programmers here it seems my experience is not out of the ordinary. Sounds like a very exceptional situation.
- Tichy 17y ago
  I did not have to think much about expenses either. But did you plan to buy a house, or start a company? That is, have you tried to get significant savings on the side? Also, how old are you? I think when young, one doesn't really have a feeling for how much money one might need in the long run. Alone, I don't need more than maybe a 30m^2 flat. I don't crave any luxuries (except a fast computer+internet). Once family enters the picture, things might change dramatically. Suddenly you need a 4+ bedroom flat, a car, finance your kids education etc. Also, the older you get, the more you realize that you need savings for old age, good health insurance, and you might not be able to always work as hard as you used to.
  - ido 17y ago
    I'm 26, living alone in a 3 bedroom apartment, there is no need for a car in Vienna and higher education is free here ;) My burn rate is about 18k a year. When earning 35k Euros per year I managed to save a bit less than 1/3 of my nett salary (taxes + social & medical insurance added up to about 30% (not counting tax refunds I got at the end of the year), which I think is lower than I would have payed in Germany). I've since quit that job and my most recent offers have been for 45k euros a year. I did try to start my own 1-man shop (and failed) with the money I saved while working, my savings lasted for about a year (actually it could have lasted more, I didn't deplete all of my savings - I did get unemployment benefits during that time tho).
    - Tichy 17y ago
      I've never needed a car, either, but I suspect things might change with a kid, even when living in the city. Though I'd prefer to stay car free. Time will tell. Higher education is mostly free in Germany, too, but students still need to live somewhere and eat. Savings rate might go down with family, too. As I said, I have lived OK so far, too. I just don't feel it is possible to get very far in terms of financial independence and security being employed.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
      - ido 17y ago
        If you aren't working (or not earning enough) you'd get 'Familienbeihilfe' [1] as a student (something like 600-700 euros a month) until you're 26 or no longer a student. That should cover the bulk of your expenses if you live frugally in Vienna (I lived for about 800-900 euros a month as student). Regarding getting fired - you don't seem to take unemployment benefits into account (~55% of your salary after taxes, probably the same or similar in Germany, state also pays your medical and social insurance in that case). This should also cover the bulk of your expenses - so the amount you need to save is a lot lower then you think. I'm not saying working as a programmer is your ticket to wealth and fame, but come on: you'll earn a significantly higher than average salary and you won't be promptly thrown to the wolves if you get fired. The Germanic countries have fairly extensive social safety nets and at the end I really don't think such a level of worrying (about financial security) is justified (btw you also pay less taxes if you have children). People earning far less than either of us raise families and buy homes here (and in much poorer countries) just fine. [1] http://www.help.gv.at/Content.Node/8/Seite.080712.html http://www.help.gv.at/Content.Node/8/Seite.080712.html
    - roel_v 17y ago
      Are these numbers (the 35k and 45k) before or after taxes?
      - ido 17y ago
Tichy 17y ago
Sounds as if you are not 30 yet. Maybe your outlook will change when you get older. I don't know the conditions in the US, though. I suppose houses are cheap for one thing (by now).
- angelbob 17y ago
  Houses are decently cheap, rent is cheap in most places (not Silicon Valley). The US is overall not a terribly expensive place to live, if you don't want to be in Manhattan, Hollywood or Silicon Valley. Being a decent software engineer, your raises can outpace inflation pretty handily though I'm pretty sure I'm not managing 10% annually over my career. My salary is 2.3 times what it was when I started, about 12 years ago. My calculator widget thinks that's about 7% annual increase and I'm now living much better than I did in 1998, despite living in a more expensive area.
  - heresy 17y ago
    You must have started at a decent salary... I'm earning 8 times more than I did when I started, also 12 years ago (six figures now). Though to be fair, I didn't have a degree when I started and began in tech support.

ido 17y ago

Sounds like it to me too. I never had to think too much about expenses as a (single, childless) programmer here in Vienna (which is not known for very good developer salaries). Looking at other programmers here it seems my experience is not out of the ordinary. Sounds like a very exceptional situation.

Tichy 17y ago
I did not have to think much about expenses either. But did you plan to buy a house, or start a company? That is, have you tried to get significant savings on the side? Also, how old are you? I think when young, one doesn't really have a feeling for how much money one might need in the long run. Alone, I don't need more than maybe a 30m^2 flat. I don't crave any luxuries (except a fast computer+internet). Once family enters the picture, things might change dramatically. Suddenly you need a 4+ bedroom flat, a car, finance your kids education etc. Also, the older you get, the more you realize that you need savings for old age, good health insurance, and you might not be able to always work as hard as you used to.
- ido 17y ago
  I'm 26, living alone in a 3 bedroom apartment, there is no need for a car in Vienna and higher education is free here ;) My burn rate is about 18k a year. When earning 35k Euros per year I managed to save a bit less than 1/3 of my nett salary (taxes + social & medical insurance added up to about 30% (not counting tax refunds I got at the end of the year), which I think is lower than I would have payed in Germany). I've since quit that job and my most recent offers have been for 45k euros a year. I did try to start my own 1-man shop (and failed) with the money I saved while working, my savings lasted for about a year (actually it could have lasted more, I didn't deplete all of my savings - I did get unemployment benefits during that time tho).
  - Tichy 17y ago
    I've never needed a car, either, but I suspect things might change with a kid, even when living in the city. Though I'd prefer to stay car free. Time will tell. Higher education is mostly free in Germany, too, but students still need to live somewhere and eat. Savings rate might go down with family, too. As I said, I have lived OK so far, too. I just don't feel it is possible to get very far in terms of financial independence and security being employed.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
    - ido 17y ago
      If you aren't working (or not earning enough) you'd get 'Familienbeihilfe' [1] as a student (something like 600-700 euros a month) until you're 26 or no longer a student. That should cover the bulk of your expenses if you live frugally in Vienna (I lived for about 800-900 euros a month as student). Regarding getting fired - you don't seem to take unemployment benefits into account (~55% of your salary after taxes, probably the same or similar in Germany, state also pays your medical and social insurance in that case). This should also cover the bulk of your expenses - so the amount you need to save is a lot lower then you think. I'm not saying working as a programmer is your ticket to wealth and fame, but come on: you'll earn a significantly higher than average salary and you won't be promptly thrown to the wolves if you get fired. The Germanic countries have fairly extensive social safety nets and at the end I really don't think such a level of worrying (about financial security) is justified (btw you also pay less taxes if you have children). People earning far less than either of us raise families and buy homes here (and in much poorer countries) just fine. [1] http://www.help.gv.at/Content.Node/8/Seite.080712.html http://www.help.gv.at/Content.Node/8/Seite.080712.html
  - roel_v 17y ago
    Are these numbers (the 35k and 45k) before or after taxes?
    - ido 17y ago

Tichy 17y ago

Sounds as if you are not 30 yet. Maybe your outlook will change when you get older. I don't know the conditions in the US, though. I suppose houses are cheap for one thing (by now).

angelbob 17y ago
Houses are decently cheap, rent is cheap in most places (not Silicon Valley). The US is overall not a terribly expensive place to live, if you don't want to be in Manhattan, Hollywood or Silicon Valley. Being a decent software engineer, your raises can outpace inflation pretty handily though I'm pretty sure I'm not managing 10% annually over my career. My salary is 2.3 times what it was when I started, about 12 years ago. My calculator widget thinks that's about 7% annual increase and I'm now living much better than I did in 1998, despite living in a more expensive area.
- heresy 17y ago
  You must have started at a decent salary... I'm earning 8 times more than I did when I started, also 12 years ago (six figures now). Though to be fair, I didn't have a degree when I started and began in tech support.