4 ms·

Similarly, "Corporations don't pay enough for me to build a safety cushion of money." What sort of spending habits must one have for that statement to be true?

Similarly, "Corporations don't pay enough for me to build a safety cushion of money." What sort of spending habits must one have for that statement to be true? Sounds like the parent commenter is making excuses.

Tichy 17y ago
Suppose I need about 2000€ per month - my rent is 500€ and my health insurance is 700€ (unfortunately). Also there might be family to support. So to survive for a year, I would need 24K of savings. It takes several years to build that up with a normal salary. To pay for a house or flat, most people work 30 years where I live. And that is with 50K they pay in cash in the beginning - which I don't have, as I don't have rich parents. It takes several years to save 50K with a normal salary. I haven't worked as an employee for a while, but there are taxes to be paid, social insurance, pension plans and what not (mandatory where I live). I think with 60K, maybe < 10K would be left over per year. That's not counting iPads, new Computers, car, whatever (meaning I won't be able to save all that). Also, the pension plan is supposed to be worthless (they've been saying for years that the system will collapse), so I'd have to put some money into a private pension plan. As a freelancer, I was up to 80K savings in about 3 years (sadly, since then severely reduced, but still). Yes, you can live comfortably as an employee - as long as you don't lose your job for 40 years.
- mattiss 17y ago
  Unfortunately there is really no way to get these things as an employee, excluding Wall Street (fuck those guys :) ). The logical conclusion is to start your own company.
- yalurker 17y ago
  Mostly, it sounds like you've just had bad experiences in the past, or you live in a place that makes life harder. I live in the US, make an average salary for a software engineer, and live an incredibly comfortable life. I'm not going to retire at 30 or own a private yacht, but life isn't the dickensian struggle you present.
  - ido 17y ago
    Sounds like it to me too. I never had to think too much about expenses as a (single, childless) programmer here in Vienna (which is not known for very good developer salaries). Looking at other programmers here it seems my experience is not out of the ordinary. Sounds like a very exceptional situation.
    - Tichy 17y ago
      I did not have to think much about expenses either. But did you plan to buy a house, or start a company? That is, have you tried to get significant savings on the side? Also, how old are you? I think when young, one doesn't really have a feeling for how much money one might need in the long run. Alone, I don't need more than maybe a 30m^2 flat. I don't crave any luxuries (except a fast computer+internet). Once family enters the picture, things might change dramatically. Suddenly you need a 4+ bedroom flat, a car, finance your kids education etc. Also, the older you get, the more you realize that you need savings for old age, good health insurance, and you might not be able to always work as hard as you used to.
      - ido 17y ago
        I'm 26, living alone in a 3 bedroom apartment, there is no need for a car in Vienna and higher education is free here ;) My burn rate is about 18k a year. When earning 35k Euros per year I managed to save a bit less than 1/3 of my nett salary (taxes + social & medical insurance added up to about 30% (not counting tax refunds I got at the end of the year), which I think is lower than I would have payed in Germany). I've since quit that job and my most recent offers have been for 45k euros a year. I did try to start my own 1-man shop (and failed) with the money I saved while working, my savings lasted for about a year (actually it could have lasted more, I didn't deplete all of my savings - I did get unemployment benefits during that time tho).
        Tichy 17y ago
        I've never needed a car, either, but I suspect things might change with a kid, even when living in the city. Though I'd prefer to stay car free. Time will tell. Higher education is mostly free in Germany, too, but students still need to live somewhere and eat. Savings rate might go down with family, too. As I said, I have lived OK so far, too. I just don't feel it is possible to get very far in terms of financial independence and security being employed.
- ido 17y ago
  Where the hell in the EU do you live that medical insurance cost 700 Euros a month?? I haven't payed medical insurance since starting to work (as the employers pay them here), but when I did the cost (for plain vanilla public medical insurance, which in Austria covers pretty much everything in my experience) was a bit over 20 Euros a month.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    Germany. Insurance is a percentage of your income, up to a maximum (something around 700 to 800EUR). That's if you are on "public insurance". At the moment I can't switch to private insurance, also not sure if it would be a good idea in the long run. I suspect a lot of Germans are not consciously aware of how much health insurance costs, because the employer pays half of it. So they would think they only pay 300€ for health insurance, when in reality they pay 600€.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    20€ sounds amazing. I envy you for living in Vienna. It's a very nice city, and apparently much more efficient than Germany :-/

Tichy 17y ago

Suppose I need about 2000€ per month - my rent is 500€ and my health insurance is 700€ (unfortunately). Also there might be family to support. So to survive for a year, I would need 24K of savings. It takes several years to build that up with a normal salary. To pay for a house or flat, most people work 30 years where I live. And that is with 50K they pay in cash in the beginning - which I don't have, as I don't have rich parents. It takes several years to save 50K with a normal salary. I haven't worked as an employee for a while, but there are taxes to be paid, social insurance, pension plans and what not (mandatory where I live). I think with 60K, maybe < 10K would be left over per year. That's not counting iPads, new Computers, car, whatever (meaning I won't be able to save all that). Also, the pension plan is supposed to be worthless (they've been saying for years that the system will collapse), so I'd have to put some money into a private pension plan. As a freelancer, I was up to 80K savings in about 3 years (sadly, since then severely reduced, but still). Yes, you can live comfortably as an employee - as long as you don't lose your job for 40 years.

mattiss 17y ago
Unfortunately there is really no way to get these things as an employee, excluding Wall Street (fuck those guys :) ). The logical conclusion is to start your own company.
yalurker 17y ago
Mostly, it sounds like you've just had bad experiences in the past, or you live in a place that makes life harder. I live in the US, make an average salary for a software engineer, and live an incredibly comfortable life. I'm not going to retire at 30 or own a private yacht, but life isn't the dickensian struggle you present.
- ido 17y ago
  Sounds like it to me too. I never had to think too much about expenses as a (single, childless) programmer here in Vienna (which is not known for very good developer salaries). Looking at other programmers here it seems my experience is not out of the ordinary. Sounds like a very exceptional situation.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    I did not have to think much about expenses either. But did you plan to buy a house, or start a company? That is, have you tried to get significant savings on the side? Also, how old are you? I think when young, one doesn't really have a feeling for how much money one might need in the long run. Alone, I don't need more than maybe a 30m^2 flat. I don't crave any luxuries (except a fast computer+internet). Once family enters the picture, things might change dramatically. Suddenly you need a 4+ bedroom flat, a car, finance your kids education etc. Also, the older you get, the more you realize that you need savings for old age, good health insurance, and you might not be able to always work as hard as you used to.
    - ido 17y ago
      I'm 26, living alone in a 3 bedroom apartment, there is no need for a car in Vienna and higher education is free here ;) My burn rate is about 18k a year. When earning 35k Euros per year I managed to save a bit less than 1/3 of my nett salary (taxes + social & medical insurance added up to about 30% (not counting tax refunds I got at the end of the year), which I think is lower than I would have payed in Germany). I've since quit that job and my most recent offers have been for 45k euros a year. I did try to start my own 1-man shop (and failed) with the money I saved while working, my savings lasted for about a year (actually it could have lasted more, I didn't deplete all of my savings - I did get unemployment benefits during that time tho).
      - Tichy 17y ago
        I've never needed a car, either, but I suspect things might change with a kid, even when living in the city. Though I'd prefer to stay car free. Time will tell. Higher education is mostly free in Germany, too, but students still need to live somewhere and eat. Savings rate might go down with family, too. As I said, I have lived OK so far, too. I just don't feel it is possible to get very far in terms of financial independence and security being employed.
ido 17y ago
Where the hell in the EU do you live that medical insurance cost 700 Euros a month?? I haven't payed medical insurance since starting to work (as the employers pay them here), but when I did the cost (for plain vanilla public medical insurance, which in Austria covers pretty much everything in my experience) was a bit over 20 Euros a month.
- Tichy 17y ago
  Germany. Insurance is a percentage of your income, up to a maximum (something around 700 to 800EUR). That's if you are on "public insurance". At the moment I can't switch to private insurance, also not sure if it would be a good idea in the long run. I suspect a lot of Germans are not consciously aware of how much health insurance costs, because the employer pays half of it. So they would think they only pay 300€ for health insurance, when in reality they pay 600€.
- Tichy 17y ago
  20€ sounds amazing. I envy you for living in Vienna. It's a very nice city, and apparently much more efficient than Germany :-/